DOES anyone know how many anti-Vatican campaigners marched on the Italian Embassy in London and Rome yesterday in protest against the Catholic Church’s interference in Italian, European and global politics?
We would have expected the media – the BBC in particular – to have reported on this event, but this morning there appears to be no coverage at all of the protests. Odd that, don’t you think?
What we do know, via Ekklesia, is that protesters gathered outside the capital’s Natural History Museum yesterday ahead of the march to the embassy.
Peter Tatchell pictured at an anti-Mugabe protest
Of the event, organised to mirror one in Rome, human rights and Green campaigner Peter Tatchell said:
Our aim is a Europe where people are free to practice their faith but where no religion has privileged legal status and unique access to political power and influence.
We are appalled by the Pope’s repeated attacks on the rights of women and gay people and by his wilful opposition to life-saving condom provision. The Italian government too often allows itself to be bullied by the Vatican, on issues such as same-sex civil marriage and sex education in schools.
He added:
If Catholics suffer discrimination I will be the first to defend them. Equally, when the Pope supports discrimination against women and gay people I will be the first to oppose him. That is the difference between me and the Pope. I oppose all discrimination, including against Catholics. He supports sexist and homophobic discrimination whenever it suits his intolerant interpretation of the Christian faith.
The Vatican has diplomatic relationships with almost all countries throughout the world (174 when Pope John Paul II died), the organisers point out, and in many European Union countries they benefit from the support of Catholic politicians or in many cases of Christian political parties.
Of the 27 countries of the European Union, 14 are bound to the Vatican by at least one treaty. No other religion has such a power in Europe and in the world they say, thus prompting the Economist magazine (21/07/2007) to publish an investigation about the diplomatic service of the Vatican, questioning whether it deserves its special status at the United Nations .
The British Humanist Association was another group that supported the march in London.
Hanne Stinson, BHA Chief Executive, explained:
At a time when we see the increasing influence of religious institutions in the UK and across Europe, despite our increasingly diverse and secular societies, it is becoming evermore important to make the case for equality, rights, democracy and secular states.
Tragic events of the last week in Italy highlight the Vatican’s true power and influence over the rule of law when it colluded with the Prime Minister to push through an ‘emergency’ law to prevent the withdrawal of feeding tubes for a patient who was catastrophically brain damaged in 1992 – against the wishes of the family, doctors and courts – and which was only narrowly prevented.
This situation has brought Vatican bullying and influence into sharp focus. In recent months we’ve also seen the Vatican refusing to endorse a UN resolution calling for decriminalisation of homosexuality, a move widely condemned as lending credence to states which execute people for the ‘crime’ of being gay.
She also pointed out that:
The Vatican’s observer status at the UN and concordats with EU member states are not just an abstract, symbolic state of affairs, or a remnant of tradition. This failure to truly break the bind of church on state is having real, measurable, shocking impact across Europe and across the world.
Tatchell had an excellent piece – Just Say No to the Vatican - in the Guardian on Friday.
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
February 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Don Zapatero, the Spanish Prime Minister seems to be upsetting the Vatican a lot recently with his changes to abortion law, gay rights and making divorce easier. The Vatican was practically apoplectic with rage over these matters, presumably thinking that, in a mainly catholic country, their word was law. Anyway the Prime Minister told them to sod off and let the elected representatives of the country, run the country. (my words) A lot has changed since Franco and the Pope were f*ck buddies.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Ok newspaniard, now I suppose we will see a major natural disaster strike Spain. A hurricane like Katrina, or a Tsunami like the one aimed at Swedes on holiday in Thailand, or wild fires like those in Australia. It’s bound to happen. God must be really angry with those Spaniards changing laws affecting abortion, gay rights and divorce. Now we’ll see the hand of god at work! Dont hold your breath though. We might have to wait a bit.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
We should ask the Vatican councils what are the truths they have kept hidden and locked up in their library for centuries. We need those truths to come out. They can’t keep them hidden forever, not in this day and age. There is spiritual wickedness in high places in church and state and they are protecting each other.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Doris Tracey: Mainly porn. Which doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be exposed, of course.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Nice one newspaniard!
As you say, it can still be exposed but only as long as it doesn’t involve any of those guys in dresses at the vatican. That could be psychologically damaging to everyone who sees it!
February 15th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
DOES anyone know how many anti-Vatican campaigners marched on the Italian Embassy in London and Rome yesterday in protest against the Catholic Church’s interference in Italian, European and global politics?
Who cares? Just exactly what is the problem? Just exactly how does the Vatican “interfere”. Let’s see. There is no Vatican army. The Vatican is not a major trading partner. It isn’t sitting on vast oil reserves and holding any nation hostage for it’s energy supply. So, exactly what is the problem?
February 15th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Barry. I appreciate that you have reprimanded me for saying exactly this…but I have only used one of my 3 strikes.
@maggie. Women eh!… I dunno
February 15th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
@ Remigius, I am keeping tally …
@ Maggie, jeez, where does one start …?
• The great paedophile priest cover-ups in the US, Ireland, Britain and elsewhere.
• Relentless black propaganda in Africa against the use of condoms as a barrier against the spread of Aids, thus causing millions to die unnecessarily.
• Re-instating Holocaust-denier Bishop Williamson
• Warning Catholic lawmakers in countries around the world to vote against population control measures, stem cell research, voluntary euthanasia, women’s right to choose what they do with their own bodies, and gay marriage.
There is much, much more – but those will do for starters to demonstrate that the Vatican is an implacable enemy of reason and human progress, and needs to be put firmly in its place.
February 15th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Barry. Just thought about my last post. I apologise.
Maggie – I’m sorry. I recognise that my last comment was somewhat sexist. Someone has recently pissed me off, big time. That person suffers from a Y-Chromosome deficiency; and I just happened to pass on my anger to you.
It doesn’t mean that your post isn’t a pile of bollocks, just that I don’t disregard you shite comments on account of your gender.
No hard feelings eh!.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:44 am
LoL! Remigus, Anyone who dares to disagree with the majority in any venue on the Internet needs to develop a very thick skin. I thought that remark was,frankly, amusing. I am not one to stand around looking to take offense.
Barry, didn’t you notice when you dredged those tired old non sequiturs out of the swamp that they were a bit … muddy? Let’s see:
1. The great paedophile priest cover-ups in the US, Ireland, Britain and elsewhere.
I am not going to defend the indefensible and there are some bishops who should go to prison. At best, over a 40 year period, fewer than 4% of the priests in the US (I don’t know what the numbers are for other countries) were involved. We actually have more trouble with teachers and, oddly enough, it is split fairly evenly between female and male predators. Don’t even ask about the percentages in Congress!
Nevertheless, as awful as this is, what has it got to do with anything?
2. Relentless black propaganda in Africa against the use of condoms as a barrier against the spread of Aids, thus causing millions to die unnecessarily.
Hmmm. They listen to the Catholic Church about the use (or non use of condoms), do they? Then, why don’t they listen to it on the subject of faithful monogamy?
3. Re-instating Holocaust-denier Bishop Williamson
No matter how flaky or offensive someone’s historical or political opinions are, they do not result in excommunication. There simply are no legal (canonical) grounds for refusing to reinstate someone who recanted of his schismatic consecration. It was a public relations blunder but the Church is simply not in the business of sacrifing anyone for good press.
4. Warning Catholic lawmakers in countries around the world to vote against population control measures, stem cell research, voluntary euthanasia, women’s right to choose what they do with their own bodies, and gay marriage.
So? Anyone who claims to be a Catholic can only do so, if s/he accepts what the Church teaches dogmatically. Any Catholic politician who supports any of what you named has committed one or more mortal sins and excommunicated himself. So, the Vatican is doing its duty. Frankly, it has not done nearly enough to reprove these Catholics in Name Only.
Of course, without an army, what can the Church do, beyond remind those who claim the name that there is actual a substantive body of doctrine that they profess to believe?
February 16th, 2009 at 12:57 am
Maggie; yet another case of the blind leading the blind…ever wonder why the word ‘blind’ comes hand in hand with the word ‘faith’?
Go away and think about it, if your brain still works on a critical non-emotional level that doesn’t include constant guilt trips as to what the pope might think of you if you go outside of your cave and take a long critical look at the world around you; the real world, not the bloated self-righteous fascist fantasy called Catholicism…
February 16th, 2009 at 3:05 am
Is that the best you can do for a considered response, Callisto? It is telling that you didn’t challenge any of the things I wrote. Indeed, it would be hard for you to do so.
This sort of silly, thoughtless prejudice presents no challenges to me. I have facts. What have you got beyond ill-considered slogans?
February 16th, 2009 at 5:30 am
Maggie,
I would love to stay and argue for hours but Im late for work, I do have a few points to make though.
1, There may be a bigger problem with teachers than catholic priests but I bet the teachers were not protected by their bosses as a matter of policy, like the church did until it was caught.
2, A ridiculous argument. What about the children born with HIV because the parents have been told what a sin it is to use condoms ( or that they don’t prevent the spread of HIV ) suffer little children indeed! You also sound a little bitter that many Africans don’t follow the catholic message to the letter.
3, The catholic church, though in a position of authority did little or nothing to help alleviate the suffering of millions of people during the holocaust but they did help many nazi war criminals escape justice by arranging their safe passage to south America.
You say “No matter how flaky or offensive someone’s historical or political opinions are, they do not result in excommunication.”
Which brings us on nicely to point no 4 where you clearly state that someone’s political opinions ( if they differ from the churches ) WILL result in excommunication. Also its clear that the Vatican is telling people ” Don’t support our views because you consider they are correct, support them because we will throw you out of our club if you don’t”
And all this from an organization that claims the moral high ground!
If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny!
Shit! Now im late for work! See ya.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Well, Maggie, how about this? The Catholic Church is an undemocratic, secretive international organisation that brainwashes and/or blackmails people into following its edicts. Sounds a bit sinister, eh? Bit like Scientology with frocks, in fact.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Has Bob got his mum on us?
How long before Maggie has a go at us for “not” criticising Islam?
February 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Actually, Wurble, the teachers were protected by their bosses (principals, in America speak) and passed from school district to school district in what appears to be exactly the same kind of “protecting our own” mentality the offending bishops displayed. Perhaps there is something about corporate behavior that trumps what an individual would ordinarily do.
Your condom argument is still ridiculous. People who listen to the Catholic Church on the use of condoms, listen to it on monogamy or chastity. Of all the adjectives one might apply to my attitude towards this situation, bitter is just about the least appropriate one you could have come up with. It is simply meaningless.
The Nazi/Catholic Church business is idiotic. The Jews, both in Rome and in Israel, were loud in their thanks to the Pope for what he did for them after the war. This is revisionist history of the sort David Irving peddles.
As far as excommunication is concerned, you didn’t read what I wrote carefully enough. Politicians who support gravely immoral positions, like abortion, excommunicate themselves. It is rare for the Church to do so and then it is usually pronounced on clergy who are schismatic.
The Vatican does not tell people to “support our views”. They remind Catholics who do wrong that they must do right. If they don’t support what the Church teaches they have three options, leave it, find a nice Protestant Church that looks the other way on these issues (they exist), or live up to the profession of faith they make every time they go to Mass. Lying is a mortal sin, too.
Valedemar? Whatever. Silly assertions; no facts.
I don’t care about Islam one way or another. But given the havoc they are wreaking in Britain alone, I would think you would. Oh, wait! No you wouldn’t. The Muslims slit throats, when you annoy them. No Catholic or Presbyterian or Pentecostal presents any threat. So they are safe targets.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Im sorry Maggie, when I said bitter what I meant was bitter and twisted,which coincidentally is the standard response from a catholic when faced with unpalatable facts!
As a recovering catholic myself I read, “Double cross, the code of the catholic church by David Ranan with great interest and even checked a few of the facts in the book for myself and have yet to find one that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
You might consider reading it for yourself. It really does show what a wonderful, loving institution you are defending.
Shame on you!
February 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Mike: You were right, Maggie IS Bob’s mum.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Sure, Wurble, I’ll read Ranan, just as soon as I finish Churchill’s Wars for a truthful account of the man and the era.
See, while you may be bitter and twisted, I think you would be hard put to pin that on me. I was raised in an agnostic household, converted as an adult and only became a Catholic after 15 years of study. As a Protestant, I had a lot of prejudices to put aside. I know where it comes from.
February 16th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
“I don’t care about Islam one way or another. But given the havoc they are wreaking in Britain alone, I would think you would. Oh, wait! No you wouldn’t. The Muslims slit throats, when you annoy them.”
pppphhhh-HAHAHAHA
That was a trap, you got caught in it. Kindly search this site for “Halal” to see an example of how much we “don’t” criticise Islam. They certianly are the gravest threat to secular civilisation at present, but the Catholic church is not far behind… the sway it once held over predominantly catholic countries is slipping away, and it’s dying convulsions are rather amusing.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
It isn’t a matter of being “caught” in a trap. I don’t care one way or another. I stumbled onto this post, I have responded to this post and that is the extent of my interest in this site. I have not looked at a single other post. But now that you have presented the challenge …
OK. A very quick review of Feb. topics yields 18 critical of Christians, 10 critical of Muslims, although I had to include 3 posts on Geert Wilders to reach 10. Arguably, these are really critical of the current Brit government (and, indeed, they have acted disgracefully in this matter). 10 I placed in “other” (Jews, Hindus and the odd non religious topic).
So, if this is typical, I think we see where your energies are going. Are they directed to the right target? Dunno, I do have an opinion on the subject, as I do on most subjects, whether I actually know anything about them or not.
Well, its been amusing. Carry on!
February 16th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Catholics sticking up for their Church remind me of battered women sticking up for their men. Maggie, the Catholic Church is the vilest, most evil institution of all time. No other organisation, political, religious or otherwise comes even a very distant close second. Holy wars, mass murder, torture, there is no crime low enough that the Catholic Church does not or has not in the past sanctioned it.
At the time when Micheal Farraday was holding audiences spellbound with his spectacular science demonstrations, the Catholic Church was still having people who dissagreed with it burned alive.
You say that you converted as an adult to a religion that has as its central premise that a guy who had been dead for two days came back to life, after having been tortured to death because someone ate a piece of magic fruit?
February 17th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Maggie; yes, I can do better than that, but Barry had already answered the questions before me, so why repeat myself? but of course, you didn’t listen to him and had to ask the same again of me. And you will never listen or see what’s beyond your own sad and silly fantasy; your blindness is astounding, and your defense of an organization that is the spawn of European fascism, with a centuries long history of crime, abuse, torture, murder, rape, lies, brutality, inhumanity; pogroms, persecutions, deviousness, outright lies and the control over other peoples minds and bodies is staggering…
It is as Stonyground said, the most vilest and evil institution of all time, and it attempts to remain so today. A simple open-minded study of history (and open-minded is something you know nothing of, so I’m wasting my time telling you this) but if you studied the history of the catholic church through independent eyes, no decent human being could ever even think to support it today. Again, the blind leading the blind…
February 17th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Just to add a point about condoms in Africa: Many people do not have a choice about the promiscuous actions of their partner. The best they can hope for is that their partner does not acquire HIV, or that their partner does not pass it on to them. This is where condoms come in.
Regarding your final point about whether one should be free to pick and choose which doctrines to follow: how? on what basis should one pick and choose? Why not just ignore everything they say?
December 20th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
What about Islamic Sharia ? Keep Islam out of politics anywhere…….
Any religions any cults……..
We can’t afford world ruled by these idiot brainwashed zombies……
December 20th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Why Atheists mostly attack Christianity ?
What about Hinduism apartheid Caste system ?
What about Sexist, Racist, Apartheid Islamic Sharia ?
Speak out everyone…………
Have a protest in Saudi Arabia embassy or Iran or any Islamic nations…….
Hypocrisy, intolerant and ignorant must stop worldwide…..
We must tell UN that no governments should be based on any religious interpretation at all.