TERRY Sanderson, National Secular Society President, has criticised a call by doctors to be allowed to discuss spiritual issues with patients as well as offer to pray for them.
Such interference, says Sanderson:
Can all too quickly get out of hand and we will have staff preaching on the wards.
He was reacting to news that some medics are poised to tell the British Medical Association conference this week that staff with a religious bent should not be disciplined as long as they handle the issue sensitively.
Nurse Helen Slatter, latest in a growing list of Christians who want to bring religion to their workplace
According to the BBC, the doctors said recent cases where health workers had got into hot water were making people fearful.
The doctors, who are behind the motion being discussed at the Liverpool conference, are unhappy about the guidance that has been issued.
The General Medical Council code suggests that discussing religion can be part of care provided to patients – as long as the individual’s wishes are respected. But at the start of the year the Department of Health issued guidance warning about proselytising.
It said that discussing religion could be interpreted as an attempt to convert – and that could be construed as a form of harassment.
It comes as NHS trusts have taken a hard-line in a number of recent cases.
Last year community nurse Caroline Petrie was suspended by North Somerset NHS Trust after offering to pray for a patient, although the 45-year-old was later allowed to return to work.
And only last week a Gloucestershire nurse – Helen Slatter – said she had left her job at a local hospital after being told she could not wear a crucifix. The hospital insisted it was because of health and safety rules, not religion.
Cancer specialist Dr Bernadette Birtwhistle, who works in hospitals across Yorkshire and is a member of the Christian Medical Fellowship, said:
I think it is getting to the point where many of us feel we cannot talk to patients about their spiritual or religious needs or ask them about praying. Christianity is being seen as something that is unhelpful.
And she added:
Freedom of speech is being curtailed too much and I don’t think that is always in the benefit of patients.
However, the Department of Health said it was the responsibility of the NHS Chaplaincy Service to meet the spiritual needs of patients.
A spokeswoman said:
We are committed to the principle of ensuring that patients and staff in the NHS have access to the spiritual care that they want, whatever faith or belief system they follow. Although all staff should be sensitive to religious needs and preferences of patients, the delivery of spiritual care should be provided by the hospital chaplaincy service.
Sanderson agreed it was not the role of doctors and nurses to bring up religion.
We have to be very careful about how we tread on this issue … The risk is that it makes patients feel uncomfortable. They may feel compelled to say ‘yes’ thinking their care will suffer. Really, it is an infringement of their privacy. I think we should be very clear that patients should have to ask for this, not offered it.
Hat tip: Daniel
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
June 28th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
So, you are lying in a hospital bed, ill and scared.
Along comes a muppet, and says ' Don't worry, God is with you and will look over you' But somehow fails to answer the response that springs to your lips ' Well, has your 'prayer' ever stopped anyone from dying, thought not'.
June 28th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Yes – and suppose your GP is from Nigeria and just happens to believe in sorcery. Is he, too, going to be free to use incantations and the entrails of animals to "facilitate" the treatment that you are receiving? If not, that`s discrimination! These people are 100% bonkers!!
June 28th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Since it has been experimentally demonstrated that patients who know they are being prayed for do less well, surely these people should be heading for disciplinary action, not approval.
June 28th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
So – its official – praying works.
(Note to self – ask that ignoramus Ben Goldacre for a refund).
This is just the sort of cutting edge, innovative, 21st-century thinking that makes you proud to be British and will send a clear signal to the rest of the world about The National Health Service.
Not only could this cut the Healthcare budget down to a fraction of its cost it will solve the post-code lottery of NHS spending at a stroke.
“What’s up Doc?”
“I won’t lie to you – you’re very ill”
“Isn’t there a cure?”
“Well there is as a matter of fact however the drug you need isn’t funded by this PCT – but you’re not to worry; as soon as we have your permission we’re going to pray for you.”
“Oh thank you … It’s reassuring to know all those years at Medical School haven’t been wasted!"
June 28th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
One would have thought that given the high standard of education required to become a medical Doctor and the fact Doctors have intimate knowledge of the human body – down to a cellular level – they would know that "talking to your hands” is mumbo-jumbo and pointless. Nurses do not have to attain the same high standard as Doctors but one could argue the same point.
If some wassock tries to pray for me if I’m in hospital, then I shall start screaming about my rights being violated whilst try to resist the temptation to wack said religious nutter about the head.
Coming to a hospital near you: animal sacrifice, leeches and garlic filled beds to ward off the demons!
June 29th, 2009 at 12:22 am
I think that it is perfectly reasonable to allow this…
as soon as they provide peer-reviewed, scientific proof that what they are "offering" has the slightest effect (positive effect, that is).
If a doctor or nurse came up to me and offered to pray for me I would be asking their superiors to assign me a medical professional whose judgement wasn't clouded by superstitious mumbo-jumbo.
Can you imagine if you put your car in for a service and the mechanic offered to pray for it?
June 29th, 2009 at 3:24 am
Especially given that the usual superstitious cure in Nigeria for most things is to gather a lynch mob and kill a dozen or so "witches" that stole your penis in the middle of the night and flew away. I wish I was making that up, google "koro" if you don't believe me!
June 29th, 2009 at 4:00 am
Typical of the religion-heads to do their preying (pun intended) on people when they're at their most vulnerable and afraid. And they seriously think they're setting a moral example. Bloody vultures.
June 29th, 2009 at 4:35 am
Medical staff should keep their medieval mumbo-jumbo to themselves. I think offering to intercede with an Invisible Magic Fried on a patient's behalf is seriously out of order where the medical staff are in a position of power over the patient (one could envisage a patient worrying about care and attention suffering if they told a religious nut-job nurse or doctor to get lost).
And I can see why wearing a pendant is a health and safety issue on the wards, particularly in these days of high MRSA and C. difficile infection rates.
PS. some good comments on this issue over at Platitude of the Day.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:03 am
If ill, I would wish to be treated by a medical doctor, not a witch doctor.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:13 am
"Christianity is being seen as something that is unhelpful."
All together now;
"DDDUUUUUUU'HHHHHH!"
Sorry, not the most thoughtful or meaningful response, but sod it. They don't deserve one.
Also, if I were a nurse or a doctor and I believed that I was a Jedi and I ask the patient if I could use 'Force Heal' to help her/him feel better, wigged them out and got the sack…. would I get defended as a victim of religious persecution? I effing doubt it.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Another by-product of this stupid campaign would be religious disputes between rival faiths over some poor, confused patient who might be high as a kite on diamorphine. Cue the Daily Mail/Express headline: 'Muslim doc told he I'd go to hell because Christian nurse prayed for me.' And so on, and so forth. Why can't people stop being so bloody stupid?
June 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am
That`s why I mentioned Nigeria! I saw the Dispatches programme about "child witches" and it reduced me to tears. Much of it is still available on YouTube, and is a real eyeopener to anyone who missed it. (There was another programme featuring similar child-abuse in Congo, but of course it is rife throughout Africa. This owes much to the efforts of cunts like Benny Hinn and Reinhard Bonnke, whose influence in the educated, developed world is, thankfully, on the wane now, but who are desperate for new acolytes ready to pour money into their bottomless coffers!)
June 29th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
The biggest culprit with regard to all this bullshit in Nigeria is Mrs Helen Ukpabio – who also, coincidentally, appears to be not too badly off in the financial department! There`s plenty about her and her appalling Liberty Films (no irony intended there, I`m sure, as all these fundamentalists seem to have had a sense-of-humour bypass!) on the net, including a video of "End of the Wicked" on YouTube. This film is truly unbelievable, and MUST be seen. If it were not so tragic it would be funny!! Mrs Yukpabio is reported to have written: "If a child under the age of two screams in the night, cries and is always feverish with deteriorating health he or she is a servant of Satan"! Couldn`t just be ill, then!! Can you imagine people with views like this being let loose in British hospitals?!!
PS There`s a charity called Stepping Stones Nigeria set up to help these poor kids, and they are at http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org
June 29th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I'm definately going to go watch that now barriejohn, thanks. You learn a lot in these here comments parts! I just started a blog (semi-relevant plug) about religious nutters, so these cruel bastards are right up my street.
June 29th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Given the CMF's track record for changing BMA policy at conferences where they expect a low turnout, can we take this as evidence that real doctors are so busy trying to save the NHS they won't have time to waste doing a post-business conga at some superficial window-dresser of a conference where the decisions mean nothing in the real world?
Also, given their lack of understanding of basic NHS issues, it's my impression many CMF members are either retired or working in either the 'official' private sector or 'third sector' pretend hospitals where aromatherapy and prayer replaces real medical care, such as hospices. If not, local health authorities should be hunting down the NHS members and checking their work schedules- they're obviously underemployed if they can waste time on these spiteful campaigns.
June 29th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
I think anyone`s worst nightmare, whilst lying helpless and sick in a hospital bed, must be agreeing to allow a minister to pray for them, only to catch sight of the not inconsiderable bulk of "Apostle Prophet McKinney" of Manifold Glories Ministry waltzing through the door to "excercise" all dem DEEEMONS dat is apossesin` of dem!!!
June 29th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I think anyone`s worst nightmare, whilst lying helpless and sick in a hospital bed, must be agreeing to allow a minister to pray for them, only to catch sight of the not inconsiderable bulk of "Apostle Prophet McKinney", of Manifold Glories Ministry, waltzing through the door to "excercise" all dem DEEEMONS dat is apossessin` of dem!!!
June 29th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
When my mate was dying his ex-wife repeatedly tried to get him to let a priest visit (also crystal healers and other assorted nutters, she was in a big tent) and when she asked him what he had to lose he replied 'My last shreds of fucking dignity.'
God might let you live, if you grovel hard enough.
June 29th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
There`s a video on YouTube which shows some poor man being delivered from no less than 186 evil spirits! I guess iId better get busy – there are obviously a good few sins that I haven`t enjoyed yet!!
June 29th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
There`s a video on YouTube which shows some poor man being delivered from no less than 186 evil spirits! I guess I`d better get busy – there are obviously a good few sins that I haven`t enjoyed yet!!
June 30th, 2009 at 12:55 am
Are they going to allow the witch doctors and Voodoo practitioners in? Then why these loons?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Your analogy is a bit wide of the mark, Colin. Christian mechanics DO pray for God`s guidance in their work, as in all spheres of their life, so they wouldn`t actually be praying for the car! (Though I do laugh when they "dedicate " buildings, and incant "God bless her and all who sail in her" when ships are launched!!) When I was a Christian this constant "praying" about everything became a crippling obsession. Of course, when you look at things from a more balanced and mature perspective you can see how it only "works" as conditioning and self-hypnosis (like hymn-singing, chanting, meditation, and so forth.)
June 30th, 2009 at 11:48 am
My sister was plagued by a couple of weird Christian women when she was dying of breast cancer, aged just 33. God knows what they were saying to her, but they spent hours in her room, and my mother, who was staying in the house at the time, was very upset that she couldn`t spend time with her own dying daughter, but was just being used as a skivvy to wait on these two hand and foot! My sister had a husband and four little girls, but these women never offered practical help even once! Having been a member of an evangelical sect myself at one time I can testify that this sort of blinkered, unfeeling, unsympathetic, self-centered behaviour is typical of such people!!
June 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I don't think any doctor (or any other medical personnel) should be allowed to mention religion unless the patient brings it up first. How do they know whether that patient practices a religion different from their own, or no religion at all?
June 30th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
This is all well and good until an atheistic decideds to wind up a Muslim patient by pretending to be an evangelist and quietly explaining that is they don't accept Jesus as their saviour they will be going to hell….
But then again ~I seem to remember that the Muslims believe in the second coming of christ, but this time around he will be a Muslim – I'm happy to be corrected on this If I am wrong.
June 30th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
That seems to be the case, except muslims see him as always having been a muslim on account of his directing people towards the appropriate god. Or something.
June 30th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Wrong – it is God not doctors Who saves lives: even the best doctor in the world can not save a patient if God decides he / she is to be called to His judgement seat nor does the Department of Health have the right to oppose prayer for anyone who does so becomes God's enemy. Also both you and the Department of Health should check the Human Rights Act which states everyone has the right, alone or in a group, in public or in private, to show their faith which includes praying for others. .
Brian Gregory
June 30th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
The character mistranslated as "God" in English bibles is the most sadistic, evil, insane mass murderer in all fiction. Anyone who does not know that either has never read a bible or has no more capacity for rational human thought than a merino sheep. Hurry back to Bedlam before they give your bed away.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
OK. So God can go fuck himself. Right? So what is he going to do about it.
Ever heard of Megalencephaly Polymicrogyria Polydactyl Syndrome (MPPS)? Of course you have not you moron. Well my wife, an able, caring doctor and an ATHEIST you idiot is in tears right now and has been for a long time this evening after trying to help a child and his parents who has this condition. Fucking hell, if I could get my hands on you I would tell you a few things about your fucking idiot God. Listen you loathsome nutter. Who ensured that this two year old child and his loving parents are in an agony of grief caused your God? Or does he get excused. Fuck off. I can hardly bear top reply to the vileness of your attitude. I can't stomach you or your God. You can both fuck off. I
July 1st, 2009 at 8:28 am
I am going to tell my elderly mother, on the authority of that world-renowned medical expert Brian Gregory, to flush all her expensive and entirely unnecessary medicines down the toilet, and just ask God to make her better! Why on earth didn`t we think of that before!!
July 1st, 2009 at 8:51 am
Brian Gregory aka Bob? Sounds like him a bit. You'd have to line up to get at this fucker. What an obnoxious twat!
July 1st, 2009 at 10:22 am
No Chris, this is not Bob. Bob is incapable of constructing more than one sentence. Same score on the twat-o-meter, though – a full 10 points!