MORE changes were made yesterday over at Tom Estes’ hysterical Christian blog, Hardtruths. In addition to declaring it an “almost atheist-free zone”, the potty pastor has changed its description from “Renaissance of Rational Thinking”, to “Exposing the Adverse Affects of Atheism on Our World”.
He explains the changes thus:
When I started this blog, I wanted to show non-Christians that truly rational thought is one that understands that we have an all-powerful, loving God who created us in His image, and sustains the world we live in. And while this obviously is the truth, a large segment of atheists that spend time on line are either unwilling or unable to see the rationale and logic behind such thinking.
The more I worked on this blog, the more I learned about logic. Logic can be used as a tool if you’re dealing with people who think the same as you, or share your world view, but it’s completely useless with those who don’t. There have been many times when I felt that I was able to construct a concrete logical argument that couldn’t be argued, only to have the very first atheist commenter attempt to rip it to shreds …
There follows large swathes of twisted logic and mindless banality which I shall spare Estes the embarrassment of reproducing, but, if you have a high pain threshhold, you can read it all here.
It will come as no surprise that the first person to respond positively to the changes on Estes’ blog was our very own imbecile of a troll, the evangelist Bob Hutton from Broadstairs in Kent, who had this to say:
I know exactly what you mean by the abuse of militant atheists (sic). I have tried to reason with these people on the Freethinker web site but all I received was vitriolic abuse. Then they barred me from entering comments while they were going on about free speech. Even now are they entering up disdainful comments about you on that blog.
However, this is part of the afflictions of the Gospel (sic); enemies of the Gospel will lie and be abusive in order to try and de-stabilise us, but it won’t work because Jesus already has the victory!
To which Estes replied: “Amen Bob!”
Normally, a warm, fuzzy feeling overcomes me when I successfully facilitate meetings of intelligent, like-minded people, but in this case my immediate reaction was:
Straitjackets for two, please garçon!
Update: If you really want a giggle, read P Z Myers’ take on Estes’ latest change.
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
August 20th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Logic? Tom Estes? I don't think so. Had he had such logic in his arguments atheists would have been forced to at least consider his hypotheses.
He says of his carefully crafted unassailable logic.."only to have the very first atheist commenter attempt to rip it to shreds …". I never spent time on his blog but i've seen the responses to his posts on other blogs. Believe me he was shredded, no attempting. But Tom is impervious to rationality and to facts. Let us hope that he will make this wall of separation a two-way thing and stop posting his inanities on other peoples blogs.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I'm not parrotting your remarks, sailor – there were no comments here (again) when I posted mine. If I'd seen yours I wouldn't have bothered, as mine looks stupid now!
August 20th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Logic has no place in theism, particularly fundamentalist theism.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:18 am
It is very easy to come up with a logical arguement about anything and it still be false. Just because something is logically sound has very little bearing on its truth claim. Example:
All Italians are green.
Georgio is Itallian.
Therefore, Georgio is green.
There is nothing wrong with the logic of the argument. The problem is the factual problem that all Italians are not green. So it is perfectly easy for a religious person to use perfectly sound logic in their argument. The problem is that the claims they are making are not factual.
Now, I'm not saying that they are making logically sound arguments. As you all know, they aren't. I'm attempting to point out that logic is a method thinking about claims, so you can have a logically sound, false proposition.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:18 am
'Logic can be used as a tool if you’re dealing with people who think the same as you, or share your world view, but it’s completely useless with those who don’t.'
Oh dear! I'd have thought the obvious problem here is that folk who think like Bollocks usually wear funny jackets that strap up at the back – because they lack logic, or indeed any grip on reality.
Funnily enough, what Bollocks seems to favour (shouting at people until they shut up because he knows he's right and the rest of the world is wrong) sounds more like what Nietzche dubbed 'philosophy with a hammer'.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Toms inane f**kwittery seems to know no boundsHe makes some ridiculous post where he uses so called "science" and then when his argument gets torn to shreds he states with absolute conviction the the commenter is wrong because they don't believe in god. He's turned into the drunk in the pub that you spoke to once and now insists on making a beline for you every time to dribble nonsense to you into his beer.
I'm in agreement with sailor, if he wants to keep his blog to himself and his like minded intolerant bigots (ie Bob), then I would respectfully request that he grants the intelligent within the internet community the same courtesy
August 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Every day it gets better. I am afraid our mental homes are not full enough. They are saying about Atheists are like the religious of the Bible, so these loonies who are spouting out are talking about themselves.
Can he answer please why priests love to abuse children.
Bob Hutton and those like him are afraid of atheism and are now paniking and will say anything.
I do not believe in heaven or hell so why do they think they are intimidating me, this seems pointless.
I believe that some of those who attack homosexualiaty are homosexual and wont admit it.
After all god they say made us all in his own image, so where is there argument.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
It sounds very much to me like, if ( there's that atheist word again ) we cant play nicely then we wont be allowed to play at all. Who does he think he is, my Mum? Nah, cant be, my Mum has more courage in her ( atheist ) convictions than him.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
i really want that picutre as a poster for my hallway
August 20th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
If he had few posters before the changes he is going to get even less with his new description "Exposing the adverse effect of atheism on our world". Can anyone remember when we atheists last went on an armed crusade or set up an inquisition, or flew a plane into a skyscraper?
August 20th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
"I think it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world, or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe, and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligible moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of radical evidence I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist."
HP Lovecraft – he'd be 129 today!
August 20th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
People like Testicles and Bollocks provide the world with a useful service, by offering better proof out of their own mouths than any opponent could find, that the incurably godphuqt are dangerously, criminally, certifiably insane. I would suggest that they take a course in Logic 101, but they have already proven that they are no more capable of learning logic than a merino sheep.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Actually a logical argument cannot be sound if its premises (claims) are not correct. Logical validity is that the conclusion follows logically from the premises. Logical soundness is that the argument is both valid and the premises are correct, so the conclusion must necessarily be true as well. Your example argument is valid, but not sound.
That's not to say your point is incorrect though. I agree with the idea you were expressing.
August 20th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
@Lawson: "The problem is the factual problem that all Italians are not green."
Excellent point. I've been on a project visiting different churches as an atheist, and sometimes I'll hear the most convoluted arguments for why some divine being exists. Such as the "Well, if you can imagine a perfect being exists everywhere, then if there are an infinity of universes, then if god exists in one of them, it exists in all of them, therefore God exists."
The problem, and you point out, and thank you for putting it so succinctly, is the best ontological argument is only that: an argument. And in the end, there's the rational, the skeptic, the atheist saying "Ok, that was very clever. Now, prove it. You've imagined all sorts of things. You have an interesting hypothesis. Now – take the next step, and actually prove that what you're saying exists instead of just a hypothesis."
That's all we really ask for.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Spot on. But you are way beyond anything these christian bigots will appreciate. They begin with a conclusion and are determined to find some way of "proving" that it is true. The basis for the proof is, of course, to be found in the word of god in the bible. They ignore the cruelties, contradictions and any objective examination of the basis for the bible stories.
What they often do is ignore the nature of the god they insist exists. Suppose there is a god and he is a vile, cruel, bastard who enjoys a bit of sport with humans? Suppose the nonsense in the bible, spouted by preachers and believed by the flock, is a test to examine whether they will use and respect the intelligence that might be our most precious gift from god? We atheists are on a winner. The believers, trashing what they ought to value, are going to have their asses kicked – maybe into hell. This seems more plausible than their daft clinging to nonsensical pap from their preachers and bible.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Stuart H. These nutters do not read, do not think and are at best semi-literate. If you mention a book they might find interesting from another perspective they will not have any interest in it. They are ill educated, usually of mediocre intelligence, and have no armoury of facts, knowledge or literature of any substance. Something which leads many atheists into a morass, as it did me some years ago, is the failure to appreciate just how limited they are. It is astonishing how little they do know. Their faith gives them an entirely bogus shortcut to "knowledge", being respected by people who are gullible and ill read, and without the inconvenience of three or four years study to get a degree, they know it all. H.L. Mencken describes this with his usual sardonic wit in one of his reports on the Monkey Trial. They have to retreat with idiotic comments because they have nothing to say that stands up against anyone who chooses to read and think with a free and independentant mind.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I used to be a member of the Plymouth Brethren, and as I have stated before, members of their churches are actively discouraged from reading any material which doesn't "build their faith"! I had a whole library of books – many "scientific", historical and archaeological – that all supported what the Bible taught!! Many members, though, consider time spent reading material such as this as time wasted, which could be better used studying the scriptures. Most of their preachers are what one might term "self taught", and I wouldn't consider the courses offered by Bible Colleges to be very challenging, to say the least. (Some of them involve a lot of "practical work" like preaching and teaching, for instance!) I don't think they are all stupid, by any means, though some definitely are, and maybe it was because of my own level of intelligence that I finally found it impossible to ignore the vast weight of scholarship which makes belief in the Bible as the "Word of God" quite untenable!
August 20th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Possummomma at Pharyngula picked out this gem from Esticle’s rant, which is worth repeating here:
“Logic can be used as a tool if you’re dealing with people who think the same as you, or share your world view, but it’s completely useless with those who don’t.”
Which says it all, really… if only Estes could actually understand the implication of his own words.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
*Rolls eyes* persecution complexes as hypocritical as they are defining. I can actually imagine many Christians finding this man's endless chundering self-justification, pseudo-logic and branding non-profane criticism as 'militant' tedious, which might explain why he has few posters.
If memory serves, I politely replied to a couple of Bob Hutton's sentiments about homosexuality back when he was spraying them on here, only to receive what might as well have been automated messages about sin/ hell/ abomination. Suppose it was my own fault for feeding 'abusive' scraps to the troll.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Not untypically for a man of god he is also a sex pest
http://blaghag.blogspot.com/20.....-ap…
August 20th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Here's another hysterical Christian blog:
http://apologiachristianminist.....m/s…
August 20th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
All religious psycho-babble is as dangerous as political psycho-babble. Among those trying to infect us with ecclessiogenic disorders are the Orthodox and Haredi Judaics. Shock yourself; read: http://www.failedmessiah.com in the U.S.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
"Logic can be used as a tool if you’re dealing with people who think the same as you, or share your world view, but it’s completely useless with those who don’t"
Maybe not so, but I'm picking up the smell of "presuppositional apologetics" here. At least in the U.S., it's quite popular and one of the most secure mind prisons I've ever seen. This is how Georgia Purdom, a "research scientist" at the Answers In Genisis museum, is able to start her thinking with: "we know from scripture". She has a Ph.D. in molecular genetics from Ohio State University. It's chilling to see what presuppositional apologetics can do to a human mind. This is really serious and I haven't seen the New Atheists deal with it although I saw Christopher Hitchens mention it recently–a hopeful development.
Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....apo…
August 21st, 2009 at 2:49 am
From looking at the post of Estes and the comments, I see that (among other bizarre ideas) he accepts the premise that the Bible is true. Based just on internal inconsistencies, this is not rationally possible to accept. A new book–"Jesus Interrupted"–by Bart Ehrman (now an agnostic) is providing, in an accessible form, the research of Biblical scholars. He shows the outrageous mess of the Bible: the issues are not small; they are big. I now often link to this book on sites such as MSNBC news where there are all sorts of people commenting on news stories. I try to give my view as it relates to religion and also to provide a resouce for those who might be interested. I think that if I can get the most rational people interested in a book they've never heard of, I've actually done something in the fight against religion and for a world of reason. The comments for news stories are an excellent way to get our views in front of the general public and not just other atheists.
"Jesus Interrupted" at amzaon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-In.....ing…
August 21st, 2009 at 7:27 am
"There have been many times when I felt that I was able to construct a concrete logical argument that couldn't be argued (sic), only to have the very first atheist commenter attempt to rip it to threads…" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(BTW He knows fuck-all about logic!)
August 21st, 2009 at 7:30 am
It's called "Preaching to the converted"!
August 21st, 2009 at 7:54 am
You only have to click onto the tags Christian or Jesus and literally hundreds of these inane blogs come up (mostly from America – where else?), all full of the most mind-numbingly childish and condescending platitudes! However, the funniest thing that I have come across yet has to be this:
http://thefuerstshallbelast.wo...../07…
I couldn't resist leaving a comment!!
August 21st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I think you're doing a grand thing there, MelM! I've tried quoting Ehrman (and other respected scholars) to these Bible Believers, thinking that it might make them reconsider their stance, and their IMMEDIATE response is to say "But he's discredited." What they really mean by this is that some evangelical has written a piece throwing out his ideas, and that is accepted as the truth!! I do agree with you, though, that as they expend so much time, effort and money on propagating their ideas, we should be doing more to acquaint the general public with the facts. Otherwise, we run the risk of "preaching to the converted" as well!
August 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pm
People incorrectly think that homosexuality is simply a choice, that is the argument. However we all know this to be incorrect.
August 21st, 2009 at 8:36 pm
That poster is pretty insulting but for some reason none of us seem to be that bothered. One of us even wants a copy of it to hang in his house. I am pretty sure that if it were Jews that were threatening Christian Civilisation he would have a good chance of being prosecuted.
Many of the posters here are here due to various levels of religious brainwashing that they have managed, by their own efforts, to overcome. To be accused of being impervious to logic by those who have failed to overcome said brainwashing is somewhat amusing to say the least.
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:32 am
"an all-powerful, loving God who created us in His image, and sustains the world we live in."
Evidence please? Even the Bible has God putting his feet up after the first creative week.
“His [God's] work has been finished since the creation of the earth” (Hebrews 4:3).
Bad news for theistic evolutionists then…