Comments on: Scriptures used to promote tolerance of homosexuality deep in the heart of Texas http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/ The voice of atheism since 1881 Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:40:42 +0000 hourly 1 By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21810 William Harwood Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:24:21 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21810 PS: While The Fully Translated Bible contains copious interlinear notes, and a detailed explanatory introduction, the kind of justification you are looking for can only be found in God, Jesus and the Bible. With any luck, a one-volume edition of FTB will be available by the end of the year. At the moment the most concise version is in two volumes. PS: While The Fully Translated Bible contains copious interlinear notes, and a detailed explanatory introduction, the kind of justification you are looking for can only be found in God, Jesus and the Bible. With any luck, a one-volume edition of FTB will be available by the end of the year. At the moment the most concise version is in two volumes.

]]> By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21808 William Harwood Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:15:43 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21808 With the exception of issues on which there is widespread disagreement, such as whether Jesus was a real person from history, I do not contradict the findings of scholars, defined as persons who start from the evidence and reach only conclusions that conform to the evidence. Those of my conclusions that have been called controversial have been reached by many previous scholars. I do contradict the assertions of theologians, defined as persons who start from predetermined conclusions and distort the evidence to whatever degree is necessary in order to make it fit. Persons with no specialization in biblical history tend to confuse the latter with the former. Since you are interested in reading my books, I strongly recommend God, Jesus and the Bible: The Origin and Evolution of Religion, which does to religion what the first photographs of the Martian surface did to the canals myth. With the exception of issues on which there is widespread disagreement, such as whether Jesus was a real person from history, I do not contradict the findings of scholars, defined as persons who start from the evidence and reach only conclusions that conform to the evidence. Those of my conclusions that have been called controversial have been reached by many previous scholars. I do contradict the assertions of theologians, defined as persons who start from predetermined conclusions and distort the evidence to whatever degree is necessary in order to make it fit. Persons with no specialization in biblical history tend to confuse the latter with the former.
Since you are interested in reading my books, I strongly recommend God, Jesus and the Bible: The Origin and Evolution of Religion, which does to religion what the first photographs of the Martian surface did to the canals myth.

]]> By: mikespeir http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21797 mikespeir Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:48:56 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21797 Actually, I was talking about your book or, rather, books: the Fully Translated Bible. I do hope you do more than just translate, though. I hope you include justifications, especially in the cases of such controversial passages as that under consideration here. It's not that I can't be persuaded, and I do hope you're persuasive. But there are more than a few crackpot PhDs out there. I don't learn cosmology from Gerardus Bouw or human origins from ICR or the Discovery Institute. I find it especially suspicious when one contradicts standard reference material. Still, you might be thoroughly right. I'm going to take a look. Actually, I was talking about your book or, rather, books: the Fully Translated Bible. I do hope you do more than just translate, though. I hope you include justifications, especially in the cases of such controversial passages as that under consideration here.

It's not that I can't be persuaded, and I do hope you're persuasive. But there are more than a few crackpot PhDs out there. I don't learn cosmology from Gerardus Bouw or human origins from ICR or the Discovery Institute. I find it especially suspicious when one contradicts standard reference material. Still, you might be thoroughly right. I'm going to take a look.

]]> By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21773 William Harwood Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:42:42 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21773 If you are going to buy a book by Finkelstein and Silberman, the one I recommend is The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of the Sacred Texts, which I described in a review as, "a groundbreaking re-examination of early biblical history that later scholars can ignore at their peril. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for David and Solomon. While it expands some of the information in the previous book, it says nothing new." Neither scholars nor theologians use the internet to publish significant conclusions. Someone who has not read the books of Michael Arnheim, John Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, Robert Eisler, Freke & Gandy, Richard Friedman, Maurice Goguel, Kersey Graves, William Harwood, Randell Helms, Hoffman & Larue, Martin Larson, Dennis McKinsey, Gerd Ludemann, Burton Mack, A.J.Mattill, Robert Price, Rene Salm, Thomas Thompson, and G.A. Wells, cannot possibly know what points scholars agree or disagree on. A couple of those authors (I will not say which) reach conclusions that I view as ranging from doubtful to ridiculous. But they nonetheless deserve to be read by anyone trying to discover the facts. If you are going to buy a book by Finkelstein and Silberman, the one I recommend is The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of the Sacred Texts, which I described in a review as, "a groundbreaking re-examination of early biblical history that later scholars can ignore at their peril. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for David and Solomon. While it expands some of the information in the previous book, it says nothing new."
Neither scholars nor theologians use the internet to publish significant conclusions. Someone who has not read the books of Michael Arnheim, John Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, Robert Eisler, Freke & Gandy, Richard Friedman, Maurice Goguel, Kersey Graves, William Harwood, Randell Helms, Hoffman & Larue, Martin Larson, Dennis McKinsey, Gerd Ludemann, Burton Mack, A.J.Mattill, Robert Price, Rene Salm, Thomas Thompson, and G.A. Wells, cannot possibly know what points scholars agree or disagree on. A couple of those authors (I will not say which) reach conclusions that I view as ranging from doubtful to ridiculous. But they nonetheless deserve to be read by anyone trying to discover the facts.

]]> By: mikespeir http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21765 mikespeir Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:13:39 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21765 I'm having trouble finding anything particularly scholarly on the Internet at all, one way or another. There's a lot assertion from each camp, but I pretty much dismiss that. One Christian (conservative) site went to the trouble of pointing out that scholarly opinion siding with a homosexual relationship between Jonathan and David seems to have come along mostly since Kinsey. They clearly meant this as a negative, implying that in a newly taboo-lax society there was a freedom to read into the texts something that wasn't there. But it could be as easily taken the other way. Perhaps the inhibitions that had prevented a more accurate rendering had abated somewhat, allowing consideration of possibilities heretofore unthinkable. Anyway, I'll keep looking. I think I'm going to buy the book, at least. I'm having trouble finding anything particularly scholarly on the Internet at all, one way or another. There's a lot assertion from each camp, but I pretty much dismiss that. One Christian (conservative) site went to the trouble of pointing out that scholarly opinion siding with a homosexual relationship between Jonathan and David seems to have come along mostly since Kinsey. They clearly meant this as a negative, implying that in a newly taboo-lax society there was a freedom to read into the texts something that wasn't there. But it could be as easily taken the other way. Perhaps the inhibitions that had prevented a more accurate rendering had abated somewhat, allowing consideration of possibilities heretofore unthinkable.

Anyway, I'll keep looking. I think I'm going to buy the book, at least.

]]> By: mikespeir http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21762 mikespeir Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:36:16 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21762 "Amateurs have a legitimate right to ask scholars for clarification. Accusing them of being wrong is pretentious insolence. " Really? Which scholars? Are you saying "the best biblical scholarship of the past several decades" believes gâdal should be translated "ejaculated"? Somehow, I doubt it. Do these scholars publish online so I can check? "Amateurs have a legitimate right to ask scholars for clarification. Accusing them of being wrong is pretentious insolence. "

Really? Which scholars? Are you saying "the best biblical scholarship of the past several decades" believes gâdal should be translated "ejaculated"? Somehow, I doubt it. Do these scholars publish online so I can check?

]]> By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21761 William Harwood Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:26:39 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21761 To quote from THE FULLY TRANSLATED BIBLE, PART ONE OF TWO, page 195, "The books of Samuel-Kings were completed during the Babylonian Captivity, but borrowed from older chronicles dating back perhaps as early as the tenth century. It is not possible to separate all of the conflicting and incompatible narratives.... Passages found in either the Masoretic text or the Septuagint, but not both, are identified as interpolations." Let me quote from my review of DAVID AND SOLOMON by Finkelstein and Silberman (<a href="http://www.midwestbookreview.com" target="_blank">www.midwestbookreview.com</a> , Sep 2007), "In the appendix, 'Did David Exist?' F & S effectively refute the conclusions of 'minimalists' that he did not.... While historians who accept that there really were kings named David and Solomon have some problems to explain away, those who reach the opposite conclusion have even bigger problems." To quote from THE FULLY TRANSLATED BIBLE, PART ONE OF TWO, page 195, "The books of Samuel-Kings were completed during the Babylonian Captivity, but borrowed from older chronicles dating back perhaps as early as the tenth century. It is not possible to separate all of the conflicting and incompatible narratives…. Passages found in either the Masoretic text or the Septuagint, but not both, are identified as interpolations."
Let me quote from my review of DAVID AND SOLOMON by Finkelstein and Silberman (http://www.midwestbookreview.com , Sep 2007), "In the appendix, 'Did David Exist?' F & S effectively refute the conclusions of 'minimalists' that he did not…. While historians who accept that there really were kings named David and Solomon have some problems to explain away, those who reach the opposite conclusion have even bigger problems."

]]> By: barriejohn http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21758 barriejohn Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:38:53 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21758 When, in your opinion, would the books of Samuel and Kings have been first written? They must have contained many earlier Jewish myths and legends, so to what period of history would you date these stories of Jonathan, David and Solomon? These characters obviously didn't live during the period suggested by Archbishop Ussher and others, otherwise the evidence would be there, which it is not! When, in your opinion, would the books of Samuel and Kings have been first written? They must have contained many earlier Jewish myths and legends, so to what period of history would you date these stories of Jonathan, David and Solomon? These characters obviously didn't live during the period suggested by Archbishop Ussher and others, otherwise the evidence would be there, which it is not!

]]> By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21757 William Harwood Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:34:49 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21757 PPS: The AV's translation, "until David exceeded", leaves little doubt that King James's translators were fully aware of what the Hebrew passage really meant. Keep in mind that the Samuel/Kings books were written at a time when David having a gay lover was viewed as no more of a big deal than his willingness to marry his son to his daughter (2 Samuel 13:13), or that he ate eggs for breakfast. PPS: The AV's translation, "until David exceeded", leaves little doubt that King James's translators were fully aware of what the Hebrew passage really meant. Keep in mind that the Samuel/Kings books were written at a time when David having a gay lover was viewed as no more of a big deal than his willingness to marry his son to his daughter (2 Samuel 13:13), or that he ate eggs for breakfast.

]]> By: William Harwood http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/11/scriptures-used-to-promote-tolerance-of-homosexuality-deep-in-the-heart-of-texas/comment-page-1/#comment-21755 William Harwood Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:15:07 +0000 http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=8351#comment-21755 PS: The Septuagint was created several centuries after the Priestly author introduced Zoroaster's homosexuality taboo into Judaism. So its translators had the same motivation to change a Hebrew passage that contradicted their theology into something innocuous in Greek, as modern bible producers do when they falsify embarrassing passages into something innocuous in English. PS: The Septuagint was created several centuries after the Priestly author introduced Zoroaster's homosexuality taboo into Judaism. So its translators had the same motivation to change a Hebrew passage that contradicted their theology into something innocuous in Greek, as modern bible producers do when they falsify embarrassing passages into something innocuous in English.

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