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	<title>Comments on: Should the law get involved when crazy religious crackpots collide?</title>
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	<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/</link>
	<description>The voice of atheism since 1881</description>
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		<title>By: OpenMind</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25427</link>
		<dc:creator>OpenMind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25427</guid>
		<description>@rog - true, also self correction - its reported that the couple had to release 9 staff from service due to loss of business - these staff who have lost their jobs in a recession are the real losers in this.

@Tim - lol, but really referrals can be the lifeblood of this sort of business. I&#039;ve actually read some reviews of the Bounty House which predate this debacle and I&#039;ve not come across any negative reviews re: religious barracking or otherwise. Surely if this were a habit digital britain would have a spate of googlable negative reviews to trawl through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rog &#8211; true, also self correction &#8211; its reported that the couple had to release 9 staff from service due to loss of business &#8211; these staff who have lost their jobs in a recession are the real losers in this.</p>
<p>@Tim &#8211; lol, but really referrals can be the lifeblood of this sort of business. I&#8217;ve actually read some reviews of the Bounty House which predate this debacle and I&#8217;ve not come across any negative reviews re: religious barracking or otherwise. Surely if this were a habit digital britain would have a spate of googlable negative reviews to trawl through.</p>
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		<title>By: rog</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25424</link>
		<dc:creator>rog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25424</guid>
		<description>I read that the local hospital was putting people up there, but withdrew their business because of this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read that the local hospital was putting people up there, but withdrew their business because of this case.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Danaher</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Danaher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25423</guid>
		<description>I wonder if Mr. Vogelenzang has asked himself why his takings are down 80% and he&#039;s being forced to sell his hotel?

Is it because:

a) His god thinks he&#039;s a cunt

or

b) Most people would rather not stay with, or give their business to, a slap-headed fundamentalist loon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if Mr. Vogelenzang has asked himself why his takings are down 80% and he&#8217;s being forced to sell his hotel?</p>
<p>Is it because:</p>
<p>a) His god thinks he&#8217;s a cunt</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>b) Most people would rather not stay with, or give their business to, a slap-headed fundamentalist loon?</p>
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		<title>By: OpenMind</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25412</link>
		<dc:creator>OpenMind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25412</guid>
		<description>@ barriejohn - no I&#039;m sure they wouldn&#039;t.

btw - two staff lost their jobs as the owners couldn&#039;t afford to keep them on when business dropped off due to Walton hospital removing them from their hotel referrals list for patients.

@ barriejohn again -  &quot;Don&#039;t mention the warlord! I did once but I think I got away with it&quot; scans better 

@ Gutts - disagree my friend, the principal motivator was two opposing theologies. Remove the theologies and noone cares what you&#039;re wearing. 

Finally, in reading summing up statements reported from the judge it seems there were inconsistencies in testimony which made a succesful prosecution non viable.

IMO what we have had is a fairly recent convert (18 months) who has taken the opportunity to display and defend her new religion to two (foolish) hoteliers known to be committed followers of an opposing theology knowing they would bite but misjudging how aggressively she would find the argument. We have a large Dutch man, thick accent, english as second language. We also have a predisposed state of mind to misinterpret (on both sides) the content of the discussion. We have statements in court reporting from third party witnesses that Mrs Tazi at one point said &quot;Are you then calling me a Nazi? Are you then calling me a terrorist?&quot; for which there is no testimony that this was anwered in the affirmative by the owners. Furthermore when this is cross referenced against the original newspaper story which broke around 28th September with the headline &quot;They all but called me a terrorist&quot; it would suggest to me that Mrs Tazi took the opportunity to present the owners with the chance to agree that she was a nazi and a terrorist which they wisely declined to take her up on. Furthermore furthermore when Mr Vogelenzang was reported (again in court) to have said &quot;Mohammed stands for terrorism, mohammed stands for murder. Do you then stand for murder?&quot; that Mrs Tazi took this to mean she was being labelled as a terrorist and a murderer when in actual fact the phrase &quot;stand for&quot; can be more accurately be replaced by &quot;supports&quot; - a phrase someone with english as a first language would probably have used in preference to &quot;stands for&quot;. By modern day values there is plenty in the Koran which would qualify by independant assessment as advocating terror and murder (so draw your own conclusion whether Mohammed supported the contents of the Koran)so actually it was a question as to whether Mrs Tazi supported terrorist acts , unfortunately this will have come across as her being labelled.

This label was never applied to Cherie Blair when she (a few years ago now) said she understood why the people of Palestine were resorting to suicide bombing - but then again that was a matter of some criticism discussed in media by well educated people who could carry out a reasoned analysis in English without bringing religion into it whereas here we have 3 arses who are looking for a barney.

I guess that&#039;s my final word on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ barriejohn &#8211; no I&#8217;m sure they wouldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>btw &#8211; two staff lost their jobs as the owners couldn&#8217;t afford to keep them on when business dropped off due to Walton hospital removing them from their hotel referrals list for patients.</p>
<p>@ barriejohn again &#8211;  &#8220;Don&#8217;t mention the warlord! I did once but I think I got away with it&#8221; scans better </p>
<p>@ Gutts &#8211; disagree my friend, the principal motivator was two opposing theologies. Remove the theologies and noone cares what you&#8217;re wearing. </p>
<p>Finally, in reading summing up statements reported from the judge it seems there were inconsistencies in testimony which made a succesful prosecution non viable.</p>
<p>IMO what we have had is a fairly recent convert (18 months) who has taken the opportunity to display and defend her new religion to two (foolish) hoteliers known to be committed followers of an opposing theology knowing they would bite but misjudging how aggressively she would find the argument. We have a large Dutch man, thick accent, english as second language. We also have a predisposed state of mind to misinterpret (on both sides) the content of the discussion. We have statements in court reporting from third party witnesses that Mrs Tazi at one point said &#8220;Are you then calling me a Nazi? Are you then calling me a terrorist?&#8221; for which there is no testimony that this was anwered in the affirmative by the owners. Furthermore when this is cross referenced against the original newspaper story which broke around 28th September with the headline &#8220;They all but called me a terrorist&#8221; it would suggest to me that Mrs Tazi took the opportunity to present the owners with the chance to agree that she was a nazi and a terrorist which they wisely declined to take her up on. Furthermore furthermore when Mr Vogelenzang was reported (again in court) to have said &#8220;Mohammed stands for terrorism, mohammed stands for murder. Do you then stand for murder?&#8221; that Mrs Tazi took this to mean she was being labelled as a terrorist and a murderer when in actual fact the phrase &#8220;stand for&#8221; can be more accurately be replaced by &#8220;supports&#8221; &#8211; a phrase someone with english as a first language would probably have used in preference to &#8220;stands for&#8221;. By modern day values there is plenty in the Koran which would qualify by independant assessment as advocating terror and murder (so draw your own conclusion whether Mohammed supported the contents of the Koran)so actually it was a question as to whether Mrs Tazi supported terrorist acts , unfortunately this will have come across as her being labelled.</p>
<p>This label was never applied to Cherie Blair when she (a few years ago now) said she understood why the people of Palestine were resorting to suicide bombing &#8211; but then again that was a matter of some criticism discussed in media by well educated people who could carry out a reasoned analysis in English without bringing religion into it whereas here we have 3 arses who are looking for a barney.</p>
<p>I guess that&#8217;s my final word on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Danaher</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25411</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Danaher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25411</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Barry -- 

I wasn&#039;t trying to be pedantic (OK, yes I was),-- it just seemed that the past tense (&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;liked&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; the Beatles) was more appropriate for a Muslim convert. It&#039;s the devil&#039;s music, after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Barry &#8212; </p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t trying to be pedantic (OK, yes I was),&#8211; it just seemed that the past tense (<i><b>liked</b></i> the Beatles) was more appropriate for a Muslim convert. It&#8217;s the devil&#8217;s music, after all.</p>
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		<title>By: barriejohn</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25404</link>
		<dc:creator>barriejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25404</guid>
		<description>When I first read about their bizarre behaviour, Stuart W, I did wonder whether they had actually orchestrated this argument, but surely they wouldn&#039;t have put their livelihood at risk just for the publicity - would they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first read about their bizarre behaviour, Stuart W, I did wonder whether they had actually orchestrated this argument, but surely they wouldn&#8217;t have put their livelihood at risk just for the publicity &#8211; would they?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart W</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25401</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25401</guid>
		<description>Somehow I don&#039;t think we&#039;ve seen the last of the Vogelenzangs (sounds like dutch gnomes) by a long shot. Look for them to pop up a few more times yet selling the story of how a well intentioned little debate with a guest ended with the thought rozzers turning up, or that their business has suffered after the lefty media turned them into hate figures. The CI will be referring back to the case as an example of Orwellian Christian oppression for at least the next three years.
I expect the chronic failures that are the Christian Legal Centre regret getting on board for this as a case being dismissed would have actually chalked up a result of sorts for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ve seen the last of the Vogelenzangs (sounds like dutch gnomes) by a long shot. Look for them to pop up a few more times yet selling the story of how a well intentioned little debate with a guest ended with the thought rozzers turning up, or that their business has suffered after the lefty media turned them into hate figures. The CI will be referring back to the case as an example of Orwellian Christian oppression for at least the next three years.<br />
I expect the chronic failures that are the Christian Legal Centre regret getting on board for this as a case being dismissed would have actually chalked up a result of sorts for them.</p>
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		<title>By: tony e</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25395</link>
		<dc:creator>tony e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25395</guid>
		<description>So here we have a situation where both Muslims and Christians are upset. I knew I was going to end today with a smile on my face !!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So here we have a situation where both Muslims and Christians are upset. I knew I was going to end today with a smile on my face !!</p>
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		<title>By: barriejohn</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25393</link>
		<dc:creator>barriejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25393</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;Don&#039;t mention the burqa! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it!!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;Don&#8217;t mention the burqa! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it!!&#8221;</b></p>
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		<title>By: pablo</title>
		<link>http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/09/should-the-law-get-involved-when-crazy-religious-crackpots-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-25389</link>
		<dc:creator>pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethinker.co.uk/?p=10280#comment-25389</guid>
		<description>At least they got the bit about Mo right, the guy never put his sword down, so warlord is fairly accurate. Not to sure about the Hitler reference but both Mo and Hitler gave in common that they were responsible for the slaughter of many people Hitler was at least upfront and &#039;i think&#039; did not claim &#039;god told him to do it&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least they got the bit about Mo right, the guy never put his sword down, so warlord is fairly accurate. Not to sure about the Hitler reference but both Mo and Hitler gave in common that they were responsible for the slaughter of many people Hitler was at least upfront and &#8216;i think&#8217; did not claim &#8216;god told him to do it&#8217;.</p>
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