PRIMEÂ Minister Gordon Brown, Tory leader David Cameron and Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, went head to head for a second time last night in a live leaders’ debate in Bristol. Here is a transcript of the discussion concerning Papa Ratzi’s pending visit to the UK:
David Cameron
DAVID CAMERON:
I do think it’s welcome that the Pope is coming to Britain and if were your Prime Minister I would want to support that visit and make sure I could do everything in my power to make it a success. There are millions of people in our country who would welcome that, who share the Pope’s Catholic faith and I think we should try and make a success of it, but do I agree with everything the Pope says?
No. I don’t agree with him about contraception, I don’t agree with him about homosexuality and I think the Catholic church has got some very, very serious work to do to unearth and come to terms with some of the appalling things that have happened and they need to do that but I do think that we should respect people of faith, I think faith is important in our country.
I think faith-based organisations, whether they are Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu do amazing things in our country, whether it is working in our prisons or providing good schools or actually helping some of those vulnerable people in our country, so a country where faith is welcome, yes. A good visit from the Pope, yes, but does that mean we have to agree with everything he says? No.
NICK CLEGG:
My wife – I’m not a man of faith – my wife, Miriam, is Catholic, my children are being brought up in her faith so I have a little bit of an insight into the immense feelings of anguish in the Catholic community here and elsewhere and I think many Catholics themselves feel really extremely torn apart by what’s happened and I think they do want to see the Catholic church express greater openness and repentance.
Nick Clegg
You can’t keep a lid on sin and of course you need to move with the times. I do welcome the Pope’s visit. but I hope by the time he does visit there is a greater recognition that there has been terrible, terrible suffering, there has been abusive relationships which have left immeasurable scars on individual people’s lives and we need a process of openness and then healing. You can’t undo the tragedies of the past but you can be open about them so people can start to move on.
GORDON BROWN:
Gordon Brown
I‘ve met some of the people who have rightly complained about the abuse that they were subject to when young and it never leaves them, it’s something that is with them always and no matter what you can try to do to help, there is always this problem that they have to face up to every day that they were abused, cruelly abused, by people in whom they placed their faith and trust. So the church has got to deal with these problems and it has got to make sure there is an open and clean confession about what has happened and that we help those people that have been put into difficulty by this abuse.
But you know, I welcome the Pope’s visit to Britain and I want him to come to Britain for two reasons. One is the Catholic church is a great part of our society and we should recognise it as such and I hope every British citizen wants to see this visit by the Pope take place, and secondly, we must break down the barriers of religion that exist in our world. The faiths must come together and recognise that they have common values and common interests. We all believe that we should be good neighbours to each other. I’m from the Presbyterian religion but I support the visit. I not only support it, I want religious faiths to work more closely together in society.
Here is the full transcript of last night’s debate.
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 am
That means there are now 3 hickeys on the Pope’s ass.
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 am
Idiots the lot of them with not a backbone among them. None of the deserve a vote between them. Clegg is the worst of the lot, himself not a believer, but not even standing up for his own non-belief and letting his kids be educated by the Catholics. He’s not a man – he’s a mouse.
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 am
Damn shame…
However Clegg came out live on TV as an atheist (doubtless difficult as a politician) and the lib dem education policy on faith schools is by far the closest to removing priority of all the major parties.
Hence,
Lib Dem has my vote.
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:02 am
Clegg : You can’t keep a lid on sin and of course you need to move with the times.
Although Nick lets his wife decide what his children should believe, if the Lib Dems think that we need to have more sin in order to move move with the times, I’m voting for them
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:19 am
Ohhhh!!! New ground broken in the UK!!! American style debates. Yet the bastards are still pandering to the religious. Who could have seen it coming???
No one talking the truth. The asshole Ratz should be arrested for obstruction of justice. Yet no candidate has the balls to say it. Pathetic.
NeoWolfe
April 23rd, 2010 at 2:47 am
Ehhh, I don’t see the exact phrasing of the question. Apparently it wasn’t, “Do you support spending 20M pounds taxpayer money for this guy’s visit, so he can interfere with our equality laws”…
April 23rd, 2010 at 4:40 am
Neither leader is about to upset the Catholics at this crucial time!
April 23rd, 2010 at 5:09 am
I think Heather Flight has it right.
Looks like Broga’s “Scoundrel” will come here
and tool around in his glass tank while his flock lick the windows after all.
April 23rd, 2010 at 7:12 am
Sucking up to the Katlicks? I guess it’s a bit late to disinvite the pope with most Western politicians bending over backwards to please religion, never mind the ways this organisation has been fucking up peoples lives for generations. And those 20 millions had to be wasted anyway, even though I would have loved to have been invited for a state-visit, being the nominal head of a two-person house-hold.
April 23rd, 2010 at 7:45 am
“I’m not a man of faith”
Nice. Imagine saying that in US election.
April 23rd, 2010 at 8:01 am
A shame that none of them could say that the Pope could come if he wants, but the country should not have to pay millions for it.
Clegg had the best reply of the three, I thought, by being up front about his own lack of belief. Not much better than the others, though.
David
April 23rd, 2010 at 8:13 am
I am happy to see that the nickname “Papa Ratzi” has now also caught on in England!
April 23rd, 2010 at 8:19 am
TO DAVID CAMERON,
Dear Sir,
England needs someone who is able to differentiate between respecting people of faith and respecting religious organisations.
England does not need a prime minister who respects organisations at the expense of the people for whom the prime minister is supposed to be working.
gsw
April 23rd, 2010 at 8:42 am
Are there any plans afoot in the UK to organise counter-demonstrations at Nazinger’s appearances?
Does anyone know the exact dates? I may be back in time, although another part of me wonders exactly what will be Plod’s attitude towards people lawfully exercising their right to freedom of speech?
April 23rd, 2010 at 9:06 am
Not one of them had the guts to say, “We do not want Papa Ratzi, the Scoundrel of Rome here.” They all ignored the £20 million to protect Ratzi. I think Brown is for the chop anyway as the public detest that forced smile, slack jowl and pandering to wherever he can pick up a few votes.
Cameron is crap and again plays to the religious nonsense and adds insult to injury by not supporting an elected House of Lords.
Clegg did say he was “not a man of faith” but, I ask you, handing his own kids over to have their minds addled and stuffed with superstition because that is what his wife i.e. her priest, insists own.
Are these three plonkers really the best this country is able to offer as leaders?
April 23rd, 2010 at 9:09 am
I’m voting for Clegg – it would be political suicide – even in secular britain – to actually say on live TV to arrest the nazi pope, as it would guarantee a huge portion of lost votes – but I’m certain he’s as disgusted with the catholic church as anyone also not under their thrall. He’s a politician – of course he isn’t gonna say exactly what he thinks ;o)
As for catlicking schools, I went to one – as there simply aren’t any other kind in the area – but no one I knew at school actually believed a word of R.E. – we were ALL atheists from about 12/13 onwards. My child might end up in one – unless we elect Clegg and get the faith schools curtailed and prevent the tory and labour plans of building more faith academies…
I dunno – as a lecturer, I find the concept of having religious organisations educating people absolutely INSANE!
April 23rd, 2010 at 9:16 am
Another point is that the political whining about protecting children, Children’s Commissioner, and all the rest of it is now seen for what it is: playing to the gallery. Nothing about the massive abuse of children, nothing about the determination of Papa Ratzi to continue claiming to be above the law because this right was handed to the Vatican by the Fascist Dictator Mussolini in the 1930s, no sense of embarrassment or shame about the utter nonsense of handing faith schools, relying on faith communities, and off loading vast amounts of tax money on to faith outfits driven and controlled by the clergy whose open maw for more money, more privilges and more exemptions looks like continuing to be fed after the election.
April 23rd, 2010 at 10:09 am
““I’m not a man of faithâ€
Nice. Imagine saying that in US election.”
You got that right.
April 23rd, 2010 at 11:18 am
Sorry, but I can’t call ratchatcher PaPa Ratzi, even in jest. The man is an odious creature who has done nothing but try and get himself and his organisation off the hook over the paedophile accusations. Out of all them I would vote for Clegg but I’m very disappointed that he has allowed the catholic church to influence his family and possibly his political life to some extent.
April 23rd, 2010 at 11:50 am
@shargraves. Your comments are sound. Or as my wife put it, “What did you expect Clegg to do? Say he wants Ratzinger arrested, or make the RC church pay for the visit, and at the same time kiss goodbye to any chance of enough support to lessen the continuing influence the faith nonsense. Imagine what Brown, in particular, or Cameron, would have made of that.”
We intend to vote Lib Dem.
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:09 pm
elainek123 on freethinker.
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:09 pm
I was going to vote Lib.Dem, but now I believe Nick Clegg is two faced. Says one thing, means another, if he can be swayed by his wife then who else can he be swayed by…
I will not vote as the only other alternative to me is the BNP and if I lived to be 1000 I would never vote for them, and I am disturbed that they are standing in my area.
I think the Pope will come as the Church believe they are divine and only need to answer to their false gods commands and not answer to the laws of the land, which is very convenient.
Brown is a coward he comes over that he doesn’t want to offend anyone.
April 23rd, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Speaking of the Pope’s glass tank:
http://pictures.mastermarf.com.....-faith.jpg
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:07 pm
“faiths must come together and recognise that they have common values and common interests”
Yes, their called human values. Those unite, superstitions divide.
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Gospel of Matthew 10:34), and all that.
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Politics is just another meaningless distraction, same as religion really. Both promise lots of stuff, depending which brand you choose, and none of them deliver any of it.
I have been wondering of late what the Pope has done to get himself thrown under a bus like this, all these scandals and being reported in the mainstream media too! Seems to me someone has removed him from the guest list at their ‘special’ club.
Though on the topic of politicians and paedophiles, do a google of the name Holly Greig, it’s shocking and sad to see how deeply entrenched in the corridors of power these sicko’s are.
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Tim Danaher said:
“Are there any plans afoot in the UK to organise counter-demonstrations at Nazinger’s appearances? Does anyone know the exact dates?”
Check out the official NSS/BHA supported “Protest the Pope” website and sign up for the newsletter.
http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/
April 23rd, 2010 at 2:13 pm
“but, I ask you, handing his own kids over to have their minds addled and stuffed with superstition because that is what his wife i.e. her priest, insists”
I would presume if she takes things seriously enough to bring the children up Catholic, then they had a Catholic wedding, and during the service one must vow that the children will be raised Catholic regardless of the faith of the other party. It’s the rules. Clegg’s wife, as a true believer, would have had a choice between a marriage where she must indoctrinate the children and an invalid wedding in some other church/registry office, meaning they’d be living in sin their entire lives and she’d go to hell.
So basically the church thinks it is their right to demand children be made Catholic regardless of the feelings of the non-Catholic partner in the marriage. Their sense of superiority and divine right to demand their way pervades everything about them.
April 23rd, 2010 at 2:39 pm
@JohnMWhite. Many thanks on that perspective. Something I wonder about is whether the priests pushing this guff believe it themselves. Or is it no more than a means to power? I write this because the RC Church is now infested with priests known to have sexually abused and physically brutalised children. I have to assume, if they believe, they know their god witnesses what they are doing. Thus, they place themselves on the way to hell.
The other conclusion is that they no more believe than I do.
Or maybe they think that every time they confess their sins are forgiven. The other side of that coin is that another priest knows what they are doing.
April 23rd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
I have personally never had a problem with the Pope visiting the UK or saying whatever he likes when he gets here, I just object to bloody paying for it!
April 23rd, 2010 at 4:39 pm
I recall reading a story in the Melbourne Truth about a woman who divorced her Catholic husband after hearing her own children describe her as a “Protestant who will suffer hellfire.”
By allowing his children to be indoctrinated in the most vicious, totalitarian, hate-filled god cult in the Western world (I speak as a recovered Catholic), Nick Clegg is guilty of child abuse. And by refusing to denounce Fuhrer Ratzinazi, he is throwing away the votes of the 39 to 44 percent of the UK population who are nontheists (wordpress.com) that were his for the taking.
I will never understand why the UK and Australia alternate between governments of the far right and the far left, when they both have the option of supporting a middle-of-the-road party that is the equivalent of America’s Democrats and Canada’s Liberals.
April 23rd, 2010 at 6:34 pm
“The other side of that coin is that another priest knows what they are doing.”
Well, it took until 2010 for the church to tell their priests if they hear of abuse you should report it to the civil authorities. Somehow this didn’t occur to the priesthood in general on their own so until recently it was probably a safe person to confess such things to.
Though come to think of it, if it is actually in the sacrament of confession, I’m not certain if the priests would be allowed to tell of it anyway. I could be wrong there though. It has been a long time since I was at my last confession.
April 23rd, 2010 at 6:57 pm
I’ll be voting for the yellow bastard too, simply because they aren’t the red or blue bastards. He might love the EU too but it looks like it’s got to get worse before it will get better, sadly.
April 23rd, 2010 at 7:57 pm
johnmwhite – I’m not sure where the cleggs live – but I only went to catholic schools simply because they were the only schools in the area. No one I knew took christianity seriously. Didn’t affect my peer group, (barring the detentions for laughing at the lyrics of prayers and hymns and taking the RE teachers to task over how exactly everyone is gonna be resurrected to be assessed on judgement day – as their component materials were now being used as soil, plants, trees etc) and ever since we have spread the good news – there’s no god, science matters, death metal rules, etc
And elainek – no one IMO who considers themselves a freethinker should vote BNP. Their christian fascism is close to the neo-cons of the US, or the Ku Klux Klan.
April 23rd, 2010 at 8:45 pm
I mailed a printout of my last comment to Nick Clegg. It will arrive with a Canadian postmark, so he may take it less seriously than if he were to receive a slew of such printouts from UK addresses. His address (taken from his own website, so I am not revealing information he does not want known) is:
Hallam Liberal Democrats
85 Nethergreen Road
Sheffield S11 7EH
April 24th, 2010 at 12:49 am
Dr Harwood said:
“I recall reading a story in the Melbourne Truth about a woman who divorced her Catholic husband after hearing her own children describe her as a “Protestant who will suffer hellfire.—
When I renounced christianity, I lost my wife, my three children, my parents, every friend I had in the world, and my grandparents on both sides of the family. By the time I had recovered from my shock, I had lost the children forever. My parents had testified against me in court. My children were taught that I was the “evil slave” who only wished to drag them down with me. Tragedy, thy name is religion.
NeoWolfe
April 24th, 2010 at 6:09 am
Neo
Yours is a tragic story. I am sorry for your loss. It is shocking that religion can drive people into such extreme actions.
Almost every day I see now how lucky I was to be born into a family of heathens. One uncle did become an xian but it never altered our relationship with him. We just privately thought him “a bit odd”.
April 24th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
@Serai,
A friend wanted to me to join a Hollie Greig group on Facebook. I did try to investigate it and unfortunately a lot of the people pushing it seem to be total loons. The sites talk about the New World Order, David Icke, the illuminati, Satanists, every nutty idea going.
It just reminded me of that time when evangelists got into recovered memories and were claiming that there were paedophile Satanic rings everywhere.
That doesn’t mean that there is no substance to the abuse claims but a thing that came out of all those recovered memory cases was how careful you have to be. Sometimes children under the influence of disturbed adults will come up with accounts that seems to corroborate the fantasies of the adults.
A new protocol of how to approach sex abuse cases came out of that when it was found that these therapists were planting ideas in the minds of the children and accusing people later found innocent. Which was abuse of a different kind.
In general I can’t help being suspicious of purported conspiracies that are covered up by the police and judiciary.
Again, I’m not saying that nothing happened to this girl, but the amount of crazies who jumped on board because it seemed to validate their lunacy about a shadow elite getting up to no good has totally poisoned the well.
April 24th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
At least Clegg is one of us. And let’s not be naive enough to think he would come out in public against the Rat’s visit and risk losing however many million catholic votes. My cross will he going in my box. (There’s got to be a paedophile priest joke in there somewhere!)
April 24th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
That should, of course, have been my cross will be going in his box.