ROCHDALE’s Metropolitan Borough Council – clowncil may be a better word for it – has, for some time, been less than happy with the town’s reputation for being a total shithole.
Google “Rochdale is a shithole” and you’ll get 14,100 results – including a link to a Facebook page entitled “Rochdale might be a shithole but WE STILL LOVE IT!!!!!”
So last year they appointed Pam Smith as the authority’s new Executive Director for Transformation, who, according to this report, would:
Strategically lead its cross-cutting transformation programme ‘Stepping Up’, and will oversee the council’s corporate services including finance, communications, customer services, policy, performance and organisational development.
Given the news today that Rochdale is to spend several thousands pound installing Muslim-approved loos in the town’s Exchange mall, “Stepping Up” looks a tad silly. “Squatting down” might be far more appropriate term. And if the word “shithole” had inappropriately been applied to Rochdale in the past, there is certainly justification for using it now.
The idea for installing the “Nile pans”, as these horrors are called, can be traced back to a “cultural awareness” course conducted by one Ghulham Rasul Shazhad OBE, who said there was a large Muslim Asian community in Rochdale who preferred to use squat toilets.
Ghulham Rasul Shazhad OBE and a squat toilet
Flushed with pride at having won the shopping centre bosses’ approval to have two squat toilets installed – a “his” and “hers” – Shazad said:
In local mosques there are usually six or seven nile pans alongside just one or two Western toilets.
When I explained this to shopping centre bosses on my cultural course we thought it would be a good idea to introduce these in Rochdale.
Khan Moghul, from Manchester Council for Community Relation, agreed with Shazhad:
They are trying to meet the needs of the community they serve and this is part of it. It is a very good idea and I have no problem with it. It just shows that the people of Greater Manchester are becoming more cosmopolitan and global-minded.
Squat toilets are used in many parts of Asia and parts of Europe. With one in ten of Rochdale’s population of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, centre managers say they were told that some members of the local Asian community preferred them for cultural reasons.
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
July 15th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
“Islamic loos” – what nonsense is this? And how is trying to accede to people’s cultural differences so wrong? And how is a toilet I see all the time in France “Islamic”?
This is the opposite of Freethinking, this is prejudiced and narrow minded. In my opinion you are losing your way, if I wanted to read the Daily Mail or Express I wouldn’t come here.
July 15th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
To be honest I don’t have too much of a problem if there is a significant proportion of the population that prefer this kind of bog. I had to use one when caught short while working in a factory in Dewsbury, I found it a little awkward due to not being used to it but I managed. I think that there are very good reasons to be wary of Islam and our governments’ tendency to appease it, but I’m not sure that this is one of them.
July 15th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
Within seconds of posting this piece, Malcolm, I realised that “Islamic” in this context was wrong, and I immediately changed it.
July 15th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Our country and councils are skint so Rochdale Borough Council wastes money to appease a bunch of cultural retards. I’m sure the hard pressed council tax payers of Rochdale will be pleased when Police officers are fired and schools closed to fund this dhimmitude.
July 15th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
It really hard to shit in those “Nile Pans”. I experienced the holes in the floor when I was in the PRC several years ago. Do they provide toilet paper also. I had to bring my own bum wad. LOL
July 15th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Something not mentioned in this report, and only hinted at in the press, is some sort of hygiene problem with the associated “washing facilities” which apparently might cause some sort of infection problem. Should the mind boggle at the idea of the three koranically mandated bum-wiping stones being rinsed on the premises, or at something even less savoury?
July 15th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
if i came across one of those i’d think they got the idea from japan. they used to have similar toilets. i don’t know what cultural reason anyone could have for that style of toilet over western ones…
July 15th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
Why should squat toilets be a problem? At least you don’t have to wipe some bastard’s piss off the seat.
July 15th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
halal toilets, I think I’ve heard it all now
July 15th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
Brian,
What are you talking about? Speak plainly.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:00 am
This is where it starts’ where we even adjust the toilets to suit them.
Personally I would wrap barb wire dipped in pig fat onto the seat.
Fuck em.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:01 am
I’m with you on most things but can’t see a problem with introducing squat loos.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:23 am
Actually I prefer these toilets to the Western type and would have one at home if it weren’t for the difficulty guests would have. But then I spent years using them.
Once you are used to them they are much better than the sit-down type, IMO, what with gravity’s assistance and the fact it is closer to how we would crap in nature. Less straining and the subsequent danger of hemorrhoids.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:28 am
Well said tony! When are the koranimals going to be attending a cultural appreciation lesson given by westerners? Something tells me they wouldn’t be interested. it;s time all this crap stopped and we concentrated on shutting them up and shipping them out instead.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:46 am
@Don
I can’t be more specific because I don’t know what the issue is. Somewhere, down in the journalists’ notebooks there seems to be mention of a hygiene problem. Hinted at in their employers’ publications but not explained. Whether they are covering something up, or encouraging our imaginations to run riot, I’ve no way of knowing.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:55 am
Comments by tony e and Godless not gormless are despicable. These commenters don’t appear to understand freethinking, which should start from a recognition of everybody’s humanity. Problems arise when religion intrudes into the public space, but it’s absurd to interpret that as providing squat toilets for public use. Squat toilets are used all over the world and there’s nothing specifically religious about them.
July 16th, 2010 at 2:44 am
1. As Barry says, this is nothing to do with Islam; people of all faiths and none in India, Pakistan and other parts of Asia will be familiar with these.
2. The council isn’t spending any money on these toilets. The shopping centre is a commercial venture, responding to the preferences of its customers. Just like shops do.
3. There are 14 toilets. Two of them will be turned into squat toilets. If you want to sit, you’ll still be able to.
4. Almost any tourist-oriented establishment in Asia will have installed western-style toilets, because that’s what a substantial proportion of its clientele are used to. The Rochdale centre is just doing the equivalent.
July 16th, 2010 at 2:50 am
Urmensch
I found there was actually more straining involved and that jobbies tended to break off halfway leaving an immovable plug stuck in the chute, leading to a situation reminiscent of Billy Bottom’s adventures in Viz. Obviously I must have been doing things wrong.
July 16th, 2010 at 5:18 am
Does this toilet design present any difficulties for the elderly or disabled? What happens to the fizzy gravy you get sprayed out during a flatulent bout of diarrhoea? Surely a Western-style WC presents fewer aiming problems and any splash is caught only by your bum-cheeks and not your legs and feet. Anyone who wears trousers would be at a disadvantage too. I’ve never used one of these hover-bogs so maybe I’m wrong. Have I made any valid points?
July 16th, 2010 at 6:19 am
I don’t mind this kind of toilet per se, having used them myself, but to call it part of your culture? Soon someone will call it the latest contribution of Islamic science to the word, or did Obama mention it in his Cairo speech when sucking up to the Arabs? And as mentioned above: they may not very practicle to use for everybody; try squating while wearing a burqa!
July 16th, 2010 at 6:27 am
We have these in Italy in some places. The Italians call them ‘alla Turca’. They are used in mixed toilets and I think the idea is that one doesn’t have to sit on a piss-drenched seat – you just stand on a piss-drenched floor.
July 16th, 2010 at 6:37 am
Can I recommend the book, “The Big Necessity”?
I new this article about bogs would have us all (including me) tittering behind our hands but sanitation is as serious a matter as providing fresh drinking water.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Ne.....038;sr=1-2
July 16th, 2010 at 7:05 am
Perhaps it was this that Don didn’t quite understand!
The Islamic prophet Muhammad specified that one should use an odd number of stones (preferably three) to cleanse the anal orifice after defecation and then proceed to a different location to wash it with water. Use of toilet paper in place of stones is now acceptable, but washing with water is still needed for ritual purity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I....._etiquette
July 16th, 2010 at 7:08 am
I have actually used these in Turkey and in France. If lots of people are using a loo it is a bit more salubrious not to have to sit down. Because some folk are not allowed to sit, you know, they then have to squat on the seat of a proper loo and it can leave an awful mess. I have seen this e.g. on an Egyptair flight. After 30 minutes all loos were unusable (and it’s a long way to Cairo from here).
The secret is to take off your nether garments and hang them up – there is a peg for this. It is easier for burqa wearers, they just have to hitch them up.
July 16th, 2010 at 8:00 am
This is not a religious matter, it is a cultural one. Having spent time in Japan I am familiar with squatting and understand this style is common throughout the non-Muslim far-East. (And as Urmensch notes, squatting helps prevent hemorrhoids being more anatomically correct.)
This sort of bigotted cultural swipe is more fitting of the BNP than of Freethinking Secularism. Disappointed.
July 16th, 2010 at 8:37 am
I have suffered from IBS all my life, and I can assure other contributors that, as Broadsword states, for me and millions like me this sort of arrangement would be a disaster! It may be more “natural”, but it is certainly not hygienic!!
July 16th, 2010 at 9:08 am
It may prevent haemorrhoids, but if you’ve already got them, it exacerbates the situation. Also, my only experience of one of these (in France) ended up with me shitting on my shirt-tail, not realising it and then tucking it back into my jeans. Very pleasant.
July 16th, 2010 at 9:11 am
The fundamental
question here is just a simple “why?” Return on Investment? You literally would have to have nothing better to do and be looking to justify your spurious job description and salary in order to come up with such a proposal.
If it’s such a big deal for those concerned, how come, in all the UK homes of different ethnicities I’ve visited – and that’s a lot – I’ve never seen a single such bog installed at the initiative and expense of those home-owners.
I don’t actually give a crap about the sordid details here; but this shouldn’t be Number One or Two or anywhere up there on any serious local governmental priority list. Motion defeated!
July 16th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Cultural matter? some cultures have advanced, those who demand squat loos in the a civilised [relatively] country like the UK are the same people who think FGM is OK because it is part of their culture.
July 16th, 2010 at 9:36 am
when i was in the uae this type of shitter was common. The mess and stench was unbearable. You get ppl shitting around the hole etc and the floor awash with feacel matter and water after they wash their arses. Hygenic these toilets are not. When will immigrants be cultural sensitivety training about british customs and laws? Satan would be going to work on ice skates! (if he existed, nach) get over your ‘white mans guilt’ already, i mean have any of you been a colonist or slave owner? Grow a pair ffs….
July 16th, 2010 at 9:57 am
I used bogs like these in India. Once you get used to them they are better than your average European crapper, as the squatting position is the way we have evolved to shit. Your bowels open more naturally. Where Muslims (and Hindus, I believe) have it wrong is that men in those cultures don’t piss standing up.
July 16th, 2010 at 11:17 am
looks like i was right about this being a cliquey place. even the guys at pharyngula know the difference between regional custom and religious irrationalism. some of you – including the site author – sound like white euro trash racists.
cant take this site seriously now.
July 16th, 2010 at 11:27 am
hygiene is hygiene whether you crap on a hole in the floor or on a seat. ever used the john at a music gig? shit and paper everywhere. i suppose you think that they must all be christians then.
and squatting does NOT make hemaroids worse. it can actually cure them. as proven by ISRAELI medical researchers in peer reviewed journals.
July 16th, 2010 at 11:40 am
One of the errors that Muslims make is to conflate religion with culture, failing to distinguish “Islamic culture” from “the culture of people who are Muslim”.
Seems that we are equally guilty of that error here.
Perhaps the next article posted here should be about the idiocy of eating unhealthy Vindaloos and how Kormas are loony food. All those Bengali restaurants pandering to the demands of Islam by not serving Pork Jalfrezi.
Really, it’s not the toilet that is unhygienic, it’s the user that is unhygienic. I never saw any unclean toilets in Japan and this contrasts quite strongly with UK public loos.
July 16th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
“and squatting does NOT make hemaroids worse. it can actually cure them. as proven by ISRAELI medical researchers in peer reviewed journals.”
So my intestines didn’t fall out of my arse then, the one and only time I used one of these? OK, thanks for putting me right on that, how stupid of me.
p.s. ‘haemorrhoids’.
July 16th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
The scatological anecdotes have been fun, but I fear we digress …
July 16th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
As I said, I give not a crap for differing defecation routines: expensive, unnecessary minority plumbing arrangements implemented from the communal pot – that’s the point of offence.
Interesting to see vindaloos and kormas work their way into this discussion… actually one of the best symbols of integration at work, a genuine (and delicious) fusion of cuisines to produce a proper helping of “British multiculturalism.†Mine’s a keema chana mushroom balti, by the way. But yes, we digress. As for conflation of race and religion: well, that’s where the chattering liberals have their biggest problem, as comments on Islam inevitably fall foul of the proximity in that persuasion of nationality and credo.
As noted above, that’s a key “problem in translation†of the culture of people who are Muslim themselves; indeed, I can’t think of any other ethnicity that is so insistent on defining itself in religious terms – so tough, if people of that ilk can’t bear any criticism of their religion; and foul, especially, when it’s interpreted as racial when it suits (and isn’t that a familiar refrain, “When it suits…â€). It’s also a gift to the apologists, of course: “Now you’re getting racist…†(nyer). I can assure anyone so persuaded that my objections are to religion alone. Unless I’m having a pop at “employees†of the excuses-for-the-inexcusable, I’m-socially-aware-gi’s-a-job industry, of course.
Anyway; fuck ‘em if they can’t take a joke.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
This is nothing to do with religion(Islam) . You can use any kind of toilet, as long as you can keep your body and cloth pure.
July 16th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
@tim sorry to hear your intestines fell out. must have been some serious surgery and bowel resectioning the surgeons carried out. glad to know you survived.
must be common for peoples bowels to fall out in the far east then. terrible for them.
July 16th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
In reply to Donf.
My ‘point’ is not about freethinking, it’s about how, in this country, we constantly have to adjust to appease others. However, I suppose it is easier to roll over and appease these religious facists than dare to offend them.
July 16th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Some people really do take this far too much to heart.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/new.....-LOO-FURY/
These aren’t “muslim only” loos, anyone can use them.
I don’t get all the fuss. I don’t like this type of loo but that’s just personal preference. As for them being muslim, I have come across this type of loo all over Europe, from Spain up to the Baltic, from France across to Greece, and most places in between. I always thought they were a continental abomination, I never thought to link them to religion.
July 16th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
It’s not a major issue but isn’t there a problem here with providing these to satisfy a ‘cultural’ preference, isn’t that the kind of small scale sectarian nonsense that is helping to fuel the idea that Muslims in Britain are some kind of separate community ? If this had been suggested as a benefit to tourists from Asia how far would it have got ? There must be plenty of British Muslims who prefer the standard British toilet, has anyone bothered to do any research into how many people would prefer to squat or is this just ‘community leaders’ at work again ?
July 16th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
cant take this site seriously now. (Simon Chase)
The feeling’s mutual! Why post two further comments, then? You were griping even before you’d posted your first comment here. You don’t need to join the site or subscribe: anyone is quite free to have their say, as long as they are polite, stick to what is legally acceptable, and not trolling. What we (and contributors to other blogs which I visit) don’t like are people who seem to delight in being confrontational just for the sake of provoking a reaction: they can be a right pain in the posterior.
Although this is not a religious matter per se, I do agree with Thornavis. If the council wanted to improve hygiene, and also take into account the habits of immigrants to this country, why on earth did they not use the money to install bidet-type toilets, as we have in our home here? I, for one, would very much welcome these in public conveniences, but I certainly don’t want to see the sort of thing we are talking about here. There was a large number of immigrants in Swindon, but I never came across anyone who had one of these in their home there. I think some people are getting a lot of kudos again from being able to say: “Look what we’re doing to make those funny immigrants feel at home here!”
July 16th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
@ mr chase, have you ever needed a shit in a muslim country? Mr lane the japanese and muslims, your compeiring apples with oranges, get over your cultural relavatism, ie; all cultures are equal. That aint true you plonker!
Tony e, we’re on the same page mate.
Baz, spot on son!
July 16th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
@barriejohn, you are right about what you say. But isn’t Freethinker supposed to be about lampooning religion and religious behaviour? Not Daily Mail style hounding of profligate loony left councils or taking the piss out of the “funny ways” of immigrants. It undermines the secular agenda to see this sort of thing.
July 16th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
sorry if i appear confrontational. Not my intention.
July 16th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
I live in France nowadays and I can tell you that squat toilets still abound here. But I always look for a sit toilet. There are plenty of those too, fortunately. Ever tried to squat with a stiff left knee? It’s fucking shit!
July 16th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
I see the Freethinker thought police are out in force. Can’t have any independent views expressed on the Freethinker blog can we barryjohn?
You lot should hear yourselves.
July 16th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Simon Chase: I get your point!
July 16th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
@Simon Chase,
When people have a different viewpoint on multi-culturalism, the easy, and lazy, insult to throw at them is ‘white euro trash racists’.
I find that deeply insulting on two levels. One, it’s not about race its about religion. Secondly I don’t mind being insulted myself, but to have a go at BD and the others is pretty immature. Still when you grow up and start paying taxes, you may have a valid point to put across.
July 16th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
@Simon Chase,
To throw the insult ‘white euro trash racists’ at people who have a different viewpoint is lazy and immature. This site is about religion, not race, and when you finish your A levels and start paying taxes I’m sure this difference will become clear.
By the way, this ‘racist’ helped to rebuild 2 schools in Africa in the 1990′s, so get your facts right.
July 16th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
I think that Mr. Chase is entitled to his opinions and that we are entitled to disagree with them. I think he is being unfair in suggesting that we are all some kind of clique all singing from the same hymn-sheet. This thread contained a variety of opinions on this issue so I think that the accusation is demonstrably false.
July 16th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Stonyground,
I hope we all never sing from the same hymn sheet!
July 16th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
@ stonyground, tony e, and everyone else.
Don’t, whatever you do, get me singing. My voice has been known to clear pubs in under a minute.
July 16th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
@Graham Martin-Royle
I it a song ye’s a’wantin!
July 16th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
Well said, Stonyground. There are many contributors to this site who disgree with my opinions. They are wrong, of course, but they have a right to express their own views here!
July 16th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
The above article reminded me of an interview with Gandhi that i once read/heard. Gandhi was living in England at the time. He took the interviewer down the garden and showed him the squat he had had installed, then gave him a lecture on the benefits, from a medical point of view, of the squatting position.
July 16th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
The contributors on this site don’t usually reveal much of themselves but from the little snippets I glean, I often gain a new respect. tony e’s work in Africa being the latest example. I bet he never showed them his bible.
July 17th, 2010 at 5:58 am
People need to distinguish between harmless measures and what some commenters are calling appeasement. Isn’t it the case that some prefer to use squat toilets for practical reasons and it’s not based on superstition/supernatural thinking? If so, i don’t see it as a big problem.
Advice, though, to avoid swimming classes during ramadan, for example, is due to absurd superstitions/traditions which in my opinion should be considered a private matter and not affect public policy.
July 17th, 2010 at 7:35 am
‘if i came across one of those i’d think they got the idea from japan. they used to have similar toilets. i don’t know what cultural reason anyone could have for that style of toilet over western ones…’
They still have them in Japan and they’re everywhere in South Korea. They’re alright other than when you have food poisoning or some other illness and would prefer to be bending over a pan than a hole in the ground. My main problem is they usually smell because someone’s aim is bad, and they often lack toilet paper. However, the latter is unlikely to be a problem in the UK where we see loo roll in public lavatories as a necessity, as opposed to another way of making money by including it in a slot machine by the door.
Sensibly, these things should be labelled as a squat on the door so that people know what’s inside. Most westerners would be unsure how to use one. There is also more than one shape for a squat. I don’t ‘get’ the ones they have in Cambodia, they’re a totally ridiculous design and pissing in a bush is slightly less inconvenient.
I have no problem with this thing existing back home; I’m sure if I ever find myself in Rochdale I can have a tinkle whilst fondly reminiscing about my EFL students hammering on the door shouting that they need to poo. It’s also good for anyone who has piles. So, squat loos, yes; mega-mosques, beardo loonies shouting on the streets, and everyone being banned from swimming so Muslims don’t become upset, no.
As for whoever said that in Asia, you always find western khazis in tourist areas, that’s complete and utter nonsense. Guidebooks describe squat loos and how to use them for that reason: in a lot of areas ‘the throne’ simply doesn’t exist.
July 17th, 2010 at 10:13 am
I wonder how many of our hyper-sensitive muslim friends have these primative hole in the ground toilets built into their own houses?
July 17th, 2010 at 10:19 am
@Simon Chase
Wow. Don’t get the anecdote vs. evidence thing, do you? I said CAN make them worse, not DOES make them worse. Also, I think your comment:
“must be common for peoples bowels to fall out in the far east then. terrible for them.”
When it’s clear from the comments here how widespread these shitters are (mine was in France) show what a pork-barrel PC shithead you are.
July 17th, 2010 at 10:47 am
People like me with knee replacements would find these very hard to use.
July 17th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
I am sure that you all know that ‘Singing from the same hymn sheet’ is a figure of speech. I did consider clarifying that in my earlier post but I thought it wouldn’t be needed, no one will take the piss I thought. Ah well.
Has anyone seen or heard Ben Elton’s monologue on the subject of squalid public loos? I know his stuff is a bit dated now but that particular piece is still pretty funny.