PRIME Minister David Cameron’s weekend speech on multiculturalism has, predictably, stirred up a hornet’s nest, and has created tensions within his coalition government.
Critics, including the Muslim Council of Britain are claiming the timing of his speech was particularly unfortunate because it coincided with a march by the English Defence League in Luton.
In a press statement released yesterday, the MCB said:
The Prime Minister chose to deliver his speech on a day when the extremists of the English Defence League will be marching on Luton to sow discord amongst our communities. We find it very disappointing that at a time when we should seek to stand together to fight violence and extremism, Mr Cameron omits any reference to this extremist group spreading hate and bigotry against British Muslims in towns and cities up and down this country. Such a flagrant omission by the Prime Minister adds fuel to fire for such extremists to further stigmatise and alienate entire communities based on their religion or ethnicity. We already see poisonous anti-Muslim narrative emanating from some MP’s, echoing the discourse created in parts of our media.
The MCB then asserts:
The MCB itself, though not in receipt of government funding, has consistently spoken in favour of British values that acknowledge universal human rights and pluralism. It has spoken in favour of a stronger and successful British nation. Furthermore, Muslim organisations have time and again demonstrated their commitment to the common good.
If this in fact were true, spokespeople for organisations like the MCB would surely be far more vociferous in their condemnation of lunatic Muslim extremist groups whose antics are proving far more damaging to the image of Islam than anything trumpeted by the idiotic xenophobes who make up the ranks of outfits like the EDL.
For example, earlier this week Muslim fanatics in London issued a “fatwa” against Home Secretary Theresa May. Posters had begun appearing in Balham and Tooting in South London calling for the “fatwa” – which is often considered an incitement to kill the person named.
The group behind the poster campaign believes that May is guilty of the “abduction, kidnapping and false imprisonment” of various firebrand Muslim clerics, including the one-eyed, hook-handed extremist Abu Hamza.
The group says on website that they are not calling for her death, only that she has been found guilty of crimes against Islam.
A spokesman for the group said:
Innocent Muslim men and women are now being targeted by the British government and held hostage for spurious charges and in some cases no charge at all. Subsequently, as a response to this extremely critical situation and having been left with no other alternative, a fatwa has been launched against the head of internal affairs and national security, Theresa May.
We understand the seriousness of this religious verdict, and will be releasing further information in due course. We ask Allah to protect the Muslim captives wherever they may be and to give us the ability to implement His decree on the oppressors.
If this group had been roundly condemned by the likes of the MCB, we would surely have heard of it by now. But, as far as we can see, no opposing voices have been raised so far from within the Muslim community.
And we think we know why. Too many ordinary Muslims, who hold moderate views, live their lives in terror of the fanatics who are beavering away in their communities and mosques to combat integration and the promotion of Western values.
It is important at this point to state that we at the Freethinker regard Islam as no more, or no less absurd than any other religious faith, and as such poses a grave threat to social cohesion.
We are committed to opposing religious lunacy in whatever form it comes takes, and we are dead set against any group or individual who seeks to promote it.
This does not mean that we are on the same side as racist, nationalist, right-wing imbeciles who use Islam as a cover for their racism.
Our criticism of Islam is a discourse waged at an intellectual level, pitting the ideals and concepts of the Enlightenment against those of a small desert-dwelling warrior tribe with delusions of grandeur.
This means that whilst we regard criticism of Islam as both fair and necessary, we utterly reject the promotion of hatred of “the Muslims” by groups like the EDL. The enemies of our enemies are not necessarily our friends.
Finally, we assert that criticism of Islam per se cannot possibly be racist, because Islam is not a race. It is embraced by people of ALL colours, and every nationality.
Hat tip: BarrieJohn (poster report)
The Freethinker was founded in 1881 by GW Foote, an outspoken critic of religion. After the publication of 
February 6th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed.
February 6th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
I assume the Fatwa against Theresa May is intended to warn her, or any other politician against taking any action, now or in the future, against “Innocent muslims.” In this case “innocent” presumably means any anyone who raves away based on their Islamic faith.
It is all really sick. When free speech is to be stifled with threats, rational discussion is to be suffocated when it does not fit with the ideas of “people of faith” – in this case muslims. However, the “people of faith” include christians who, however bizarre their ideas, are welcomed on Thought for the Day while secular opinions are censored.
February 6th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Found guilty??? She has appeared before them to defend herself? They had an open court with 12 good men (& women) to give her a fair trial? Do any of their ignorant followers know that there are different types of fatwa?? What about all the innocent women & men on the buses and trains of 7/7? These people whine about fair treatment for themselves but have no intention of applying it to others. Stupid little men!! If harm comes to her from this they’ll insist that they didn’t mean it and its not their fault what the violent hysterics do. But they’ll accuse us of causing the hysterics to become violent and somehow it will be all our fault. Until these ‘maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew’s (Khyyam) stop treating women (especially their own) like shit they can’t expect fair treatment from anyone else.
February 6th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Pet peeve alert.
The last paragraph should read “Islam is not a race or an ethnicity.”
I could go into detail again, but the short version is that ethnicism is a bugger to say so lawmakers worldwide lump it in as part of racism, since it’s effectively the same thing.
February 6th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
@frankyv:
You will note that these so wronged and sweetly innocent victims are men. Theresa May, of course, is a woman so that is strike 1 against her. However, if they are really concerned with innocence they might consider the young girls/babies who are tortured by the iniquitious practice of Female Genital Mutilation. The suffering inflicted, largely ignored by our supposed enthusiasts for legality, scarely bears thinking about.
Or maybe the rights of brutish muslim husbands to beat their innocent wives.
Perhaps the innocent women buried up to the necks and stoned to death (stones not too big as they musn’t be killed too soon) for some fancied offence – often sexual.
Perhaps the innocent christians in muslim lands (and why don’t these fatwa merchants return there if they are so keen on following there faith) who end up dead because they happen to espouse a different faith.
I could give many more examples but let me end with this:
Will we be hearing from Rowan Williams or Vincent Nichols and getting their views on this fatwa? Or does oecumenicalism hold sway even here so that saying nothing is the preferred option. Possibly they are too busy confronting their new favourite bogy man – the new atheism?
February 6th, 2011 at 6:41 pm
“poisonous anti-Muslim narrative emanating from some MP’s”
Em, no. I think you mean the “poisonous anti-Extremist-Nutter-Muslim narrative”, and the extremists truly deserve nasty rhetoric.
Cameron was careful to draw a distiction between extremists and moderates. But curiously the MCB doesn’t draw a destnction between “anti-nutter” rhetoric and “anti generic Muslim” rhetoric. Odd that!
February 6th, 2011 at 7:25 pm
BDuke,
That was the clearest, most concise narrative of ideals of freethought that I have ever heard you state. If I were in an audience as you read those words, I would have stood and applauded. That really is who we are. The voice of sanity, clarity of thought. As the automatons debate who god is and what he wants, we, the enlightened, realize that it’s beside any point worthy of discussion.
My son and I were talking during breakfast this morning, that as we observe humanity, we have two choices, to laugh or become depressed. I choose to laugh at our stupidity, because unlike my son, death is coming for me soon enough that it’s too late to make a difference. His choice is his.
Scientists think that dinosaurs were killed by an asteroid. Do you suppose that homo sapiens will be the first species destroyed by a belief?
NeoWolfe
February 6th, 2011 at 7:26 pm
Well said, Freethinker, well said.
February 6th, 2011 at 8:44 pm
Hey, Guess what I am also guilty of “crimes” against Islam.
February 6th, 2011 at 8:48 pm
Mr c has a point, our community does not want there children be influenced by the west, but those who do become westernised are ostracised from the community and family as I have found out. I will always stand by my decision to marry a non Muslim and eat and drink whatever I please. Mr c are you going to stop religious schools, I believe that would be a step to integrate society better.
February 6th, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Cameron seems to have almost deliberately confused multi-culturalism with extremism. People have the right to believe what they want, act how they like, and adhere to whatever cultural group they wish, just as long as that does not impinge upon the rights of others. I would have though that that was obvious. British cities have had Irish, Polish, Jewish and other communities for generations, and there has been no real problem with that. The problem as I see it lies with those who do not feel that they need to be bound by the laws of the land, and Muslim leaders neeed to take a lead in dealing with this. This sounds too much like ill-thought-out, populist, vote-grabbing rhetoric to me.
February 6th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
Good point, Maz! Whilst preaching against multi-culturalism, Cameron is promoting “free schools” – hahaha!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-e.....r-12358876
February 6th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
In Canada the issuance of such a document would be prosecuted under “hate crime” legislation.
Does something similar not exist in the motherland of western democracy?
February 6th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
barriejohn,
I noticed Cameron used the term ‘state multiculturalism’ I presume he was referring to the institutionalised form, not the multiculturalism that is a normal product of liberal democratic societies.
I’m not from the UK and perhaps I’ve misunderstood some of the local politics.
Multiculturalist ideology has certainly been used in the West by Islamic ideologues to impose their values on secular society,so in that sense, state multiculturalism is dysfunctional.The equation of religion and race is a more or less inevitable outcome of the social engineering policies of ‘multiculturalism’.
February 6th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
Dogon: I think in Canada (my poor home and native land) issuance of such a document would not be a hate crime if committed BY muslims. Only if committed by someone else against a muslim.
February 6th, 2011 at 10:52 pm
Quoting Bjohn:
“This sounds too much like ill-thought-out, populist, vote-grabbing rhetoric to me.”
Can I take it then, Bjohn, that you are finally awakening to the fact that no human institution, including democracy actually works? What about capitalism and free market greed? Is it really self policing or self destructive? How open are your eyes, really? Are you a freethinker or a chauvinist?
NeoWolfe
February 6th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
This time you really can fuck off NeoWolfe, as I am heartily sick of you pulling apart every comment that I make, and I have absolutely no idea what you mean here again!
February 6th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
Well , alright the time has come to stand up and be counted! i live at brunswick park ,se5, and i’ve had enough of your muzzie bullshit! come and get me, and every other cunt who lives here! i live at the house with the rottweiler in it! It is time to stand up for what/who you are, and keep on fighting to the end! Anything less and you dont deserve to call yourself a MAN! bring it on
February 7th, 2011 at 3:44 am
Bjohn said:
“This time you really can fuck off NeoWolfe,”
I promise, I would have fucked off the last several times you invited me to do so, but you failed to explain to me how.
Let me try to make it right with you, though it’s probably too late. I admit that you are god, and that all things unknowable by mortal man are known by you. Therefore, you have every right to look down on us agnostics and humanists, and treat us like trash. I apologize for calling this to your attention, I was obviously out of line. But, like the brat that I am, I am going to shove it in your arrogant face every time you open your mouth. Live with it, or delete it, bitch.
NeoWolfe
February 7th, 2011 at 7:31 am
Don’t play the innocent, NeoWolfe. Some of us know what you are up to, and we’re not falling for it. Here are your comments from a previous thread:
I knew that post would set you guys off. Best debate opened in weeks…
And, guess what? I posted off topic on this thread just to provoke your arrogant ass. I knew exactly where your buttons are…
But, I need no battle with you. I just need you to piss off and stop harrassing me. Is that too much to ask?
I was tempted to cease visiting this site as you are such a pain in the arse, but then that would give you the victory, wouldn’t it? Hard luck, but you have certainly ruined my pleasure at coming here every day, so that is a minor victory for you I suppose.
February 7th, 2011 at 8:20 am
I agree with where I *think* Cameron is going with this, or what he may have intended. That is to say, the State’s participation in social discourse (facilitating dialog’s with “community leaders” etc) has failed with Islamic immigration.
What politicians need to do is start taking the extremism problem seriously and recognising its true causes because if they don’t the bigots of the EDL et al will attract support. I wonder that Cameron is signalling such a tactic.
February 7th, 2011 at 8:30 am
@barriejohn, I enjoy your humorous comments and links. Other voices here can come off a bit overweening and vainglorious but never mind.
February 7th, 2011 at 8:48 am
@Barryjohn (p.s. I like reading your comments, whether I agree with them or not, so do keep posting)
I don’t think Cameron made a deliberate confusion of multi-culturalism with extremism. Of course there have been communities of all sorts of different backgrounds in the UK for hundreds, nay thousands of years. It’s stretching it to say that have been no real problems with that – the tensions have always been there, from the minor to the serious (the massacre of Jews in York 900 years ago set a nasty peak, perhaps).
Having witnessed first hand the confused separation and (admittedly) strength of communities in places such as Bradford, I think that this is something quite different. It’s not extremism per se for people to send their kids to schools which teach the same faith as they practice at home, but this sort of thing has become fundamental to multicultural practice in the UK over the past generation or so and definitely does lead to divisive tears in communities across our country. Cameron’s school plans are at odds with his speech in this regard, certainly.
The communities for which this is a particular issue are mostly Muslim, but the same principle applies for any others where kids are separated by religious or other discriminating schools (by choice or circumstance). Much else flows from that in my view.
I think it’s far too simplistic to say that it just comes down to whether people’s beliefs or practice impinge on the rights of others. That is open to significant subjectivity, not least as we have no real bill of rights in the UK other than perhaps the Human Rights Act. Citizens’ rights conflict all the time.
Also, I think there is significant merit in what Cameron said about standing up for liberal values, not just accepting all values as being equally valid. Of course, he won’t go on to the next step, which is to say that there’s nothing at all to be respected about some beliefs and values, such as Koran Surah 4:34, in which Allah sanctions domestic violence against women.
To not then talk about the fostering of extremism in such disconnected communities would have been ridiculous, but I don’t think that means that the two concepts were being deliberately confused. There’s a hell of a lot more politics in the criticism of Cameron’s speech than substance from what I’ve read, not least Sadiq Khan and the MCB responses.
The MCB had a good deal of influence with the last Labour government, so they have their own axe to grind with this one. Incidentally, while the MCB can hardly be expected to comment on every horrific act perpetrated under the banner of Islam (who would have the time?), I note that their website doesn’t appear to even feature comment on significant events such as the recent incident where a 14 year old girl was whipped to death in public in Bangladesh for being raped by her cousin (in Islam, read: ‘committed adultery with’), in a sentence handed down by the local Islamic clerics.
It is this sort of thing, not just more local issues such as that stupid fatwa on Theresa May, that foster Islamaphobia as much as anything else, yet their response is deafening in its silence.
February 7th, 2011 at 9:52 am
“Islamophobia” is a meaningless word invented by the death cult to silence anyone who criticizes them, so I’m quite happy to wear that label. Cameron’s speech in Germany sounded as if he had, at last, grown a backbone, will it turn yellow when he returns? As to the poster, isn’t there a crime of “incitement to violence” or does that only apply to us islamophobics?
Hasn’t the MCB been linked to terrorists and been banned from No. 10 for that very reason? no wonder their nose is out of joint.
February 7th, 2011 at 10:09 am
Well – I’m pleased to know that my comments are appreciated by some!
When I said “no real problem” I was referring to the groups themselves. Of course I am aware of the antisemitism that has existed in Europe down through the years, and anti-Japanese/German feelings in The USA & Britain during WWII, and so on. What worries me is that this speech reminds me of Blair’s futile “Yes we CAN bring peace, enlightenment, and liberal values to the rest of the world”. Fine ideals, but not so easily put into practice, as subsequent events have proved. I’m not even sure what he means by “state multiculturalism” either: I just hope that this is not a sop to the Daily Mail reading old biddies who get their knickers in such a twist when they visit their doctor to find the surgery full of leaflets in “foreign”. And as for not using government money to support organizations that fail to denounce terrorism – well – words almost fail me. Why are we propping them up anyway?
February 7th, 2011 at 11:51 am
@barriejohn: Stick around, bj, I would miss you. But can I make this point. A site such as this is not a legal document; comments don’t go through successive drafts. Anything I say, some of it crap no doubt, is written once and on occasion I could curl up at re-reading it. What is important, as I see it, is that there is a focus in posts here which comes from an atheist, secularist view and, unlike much religious casuistry, equivocation and bullshit, is both candid and honest.
It just occurs to me that, unlike here, religion has to be entangled in double talk and weasel words because the “truth” they urge is so much fantasy. We don’t have to do that.
Or am I being self regarding and too kind to ourselves?
February 7th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
I heartily concur, Broga. I try not to look at comments that I have posted previously here or elsewhere, as they often make me cringe with embarrassment – though they must have seemed perfectly OK when I pressed Submit! Also, most of my views are not set in stone, else why visit sites like this and exchange ideas with other people – I could just join the Bob Huttons of this world and preach to the converted (or to myself probably) on my own little blog!!
PS Some of the letters in those Guardian and Independent links (News Feed) give food for thought. There is considerable difference of opinion on this issue.
February 7th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
@barriejohn: I have always thought that a readiness to change my mind in the face of new facts or experiences is a strength. I really can’t see what is wrong with saying, “I made a mistake. I didn’t understand.” The alternative, of course, is the religious approach of “knowing the truth” from their holy books and twisting everything to agree with that.
February 7th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
“The group behind the poster campaign believes that May is guilty of the “abduction, kidnapping and false imprisonment†of various firebrand Muslim clerics, including the one-eyed, hook-handed extremist Abu Hamza.”
Don’t under estimate Abu Hamza, he has two useful points,
http://www.kith-kin.co.uk/shop/abu-hanger/
Barriejohn stick with it bro’.
February 7th, 2011 at 7:35 pm
Thanks Dave, but the link only works when you copy and paste, for some strange reason!
http://www.kith-kin.co.uk/shop/abu-hanger/
February 8th, 2011 at 1:45 am
Bjohn said:
“Don’t play the innocent, NeoWolfe.”
Wouldn’t dream of it. But, a couple of months ago, after being called a troll, I asked you firmly, but without profanity, to stop harrassing me, more than once. I have also made it clear that if attacked, I will defend myself. And isn’t offense the best defense?
You hold all the cards, all you have to do click an icon, and I disappear. As it should be, this is your venture, you have an agenda, and I’m sure you work hard to accomplish some abstract goal. That’s why I wrote BDuke an email and asked his advice, should I stand my ground, or piss off. He never wrote back. I guess he hates me now, too.
Just one man’s opinion, but, I think you have been beligerent and disrespectful to me since I first posted here, which is unfair, I AM A FREETHINKER!!!!!! Now, you want to to claim that turnabout is not fairplay? You chose the game, not me. I am an intelligent person who rejects religion and believes in science. As such, in a forum like this, I would think I would be entitled to some respect and dignity.
That’s all, (sigh)
NeoWolfe
February 8th, 2011 at 7:12 am
you have an agenda, and I’m sure you work hard to accomplish some abstract goal.
Once again I have no idea what you are talking about. Have I entered some strange parallel universe here? And you “think” that I have been “belligerent and disrespectful” to you since you first posted here? Well – that’s just an impression, then, that must have arisen because we had a difference of opinion over some point or other; but personalities should not come into it, we should be debating facts and ideas, not arguing about hurt feelings! I have certainly never “harrassed” anyone – though if you keep raising a point on which we differ I am going to keep on disagreeing, aren’t I?
February 9th, 2011 at 1:16 am
Bjohn quoting me:
“you have an agenda, and I’m sure you work hard to accomplish some abstract goal.”
Yes, the agenda being, to expose organized religion for what it is, a cancer on society. Plummeting, even modern society into insane acts of hatred over goatherder mythology.
And, the abstract goal being the point in time when you and your coworkers can high five each other because you accomplished that mission.
But then, you said:
“Once again I have no idea what you are talking about. Have I entered some strange parallel universe here?”
This is once again the same kind of disrespect. Much the same as when you told me, and all the other readers, that you were part of no movement. Obviously, that was just dodgery, and spin, since freethought is the entire purpose of this website. If not, what the fuck are you doing here?
I am a stubborn man, I admit it. When attacked, I defend myself, for as long as it makes sense to do so. But, this is your painting, you are the artist, if my colors don’t fit the format, go create your atheist Glen Beck Show.
NeoWolfe
February 9th, 2011 at 1:31 am
I’m sure everyone has misunderstood what David Cameron said. I heard him say that multi-culturalism has failed, but he then said why. He went on to say that the reason it wasn’t working, was because of the isolation and ghettoisation of muslim groups, (often due to their not learning to speak english). He recommended more integration and effort on their part, to mix and be more sociable in the community. He didn’t say that he’d given up on it, just that it needed to be fixed. I don’t want to live under Islamic law, and cannot believe the anti-british comments towards the EDL group, who are the ‘ONLY’ group defending us against Islamification in the whole of Europe! They are not racist, they are anti-extremist, non-violent, and very brave. I’m glad they exist to defend me and my democratic freedom. They should be praised not condemned.
February 9th, 2011 at 5:47 am
That’s right!! All the same.
Because everyone knows that everyday around the world, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and animists are committing terrorist atrocities in the name of their god…..
Oh.. wait….
Unsubscribed – the Freethinker is becoming the captive thinker
February 9th, 2011 at 6:00 am
NeoWolfe: Are you under the illusion that this is my website? I don’t have any “coworkers” that I am aware of. Barry Duke is the webmaster and I am just a visitor to the site like you. Otherwise I still don’t follow what you are driving at at all – especially the insulting accusations of underhand behaviour. It all seems very strange to me, and I can’t make out where you are coming from at all!
February 9th, 2011 at 6:07 am
Is Axel Grealy actually suggesting that we should only be taking on the followers of Islam, and ignoring other forms of mass lunacy? Scratch my head as I will, I can’t think of any atrocities committed in the name of Judaism or Christianity – oh, wait a minute, yes I can!
February 9th, 2011 at 6:15 am
PS It’s not all about “atrocities” either. How about the mental abuse perpetrated in the name of religion, which includes the indoctrination of children by almost all adherents? The Christians who brainwashed me were peace-loving people, but they did incalculable damage to myself and others in the name of their god. Religion also has other detrimental effects on society, as Barry pointed out. Freethinkers want a society governed by reason rather than superstition, surely?
February 9th, 2011 at 7:02 am
He has outlined another way to fight extremism which has been on the rise recently. Everybody understands that the rules of the European countries are not so strict as the rules of the Muslim world. I think there should be an improved system concerning immigration as far as the knowledge of the language and culture of a particular country is concerned.
February 10th, 2011 at 1:37 am
Bjohn said:
“NeoWolfe: Are you under the illusion that this is my website? I don’t have any “coworkers†that I am aware of.”
Yet another deceptive raft of bullshit. You may not write the threadheads, but, the the “hat tips” are clear indication that you are certainly part of the inner circle of the people who drive the website. And perhaps you don’t have the button that deletes me, but you obviously have the attention of those who do. So, besides more dancing away from the issue, the question still remains, why are you being an asshole to a fellow freethinker?
NeoWolfe
February 10th, 2011 at 6:31 am
NeoWolfe: If you want to send in stories to Barry you are as free as anyone else so to do. Your baseless accusations are almost libellous: you are beginning to sound paranoid to me!